I'm now happy to announce we can take pre-orders on a Watts Link for all 82-02 F-bodies with stock diamter axle tubes. There is a version for bigger axle tubes (suck as 12-bolts, etc.) in the works.

They should be ready to ship in approximately 2-3 weeks. The unit is made by Fays2 who has been doing these for Mustangs for more than a few years. I not only trust the unit and have had all my questions answered, but will be putting one on my car as soon as possible. Jim and I have had a few discussions about the design and I'm happy to say he addressed my main concerns regarding approximate roll-center height. I wanted to make sure we could start @ stock height and adjust down as the owner sees fit. That has been done and implimented in this unit.

Details, specs and a photo on a 4th gen can be seen here:
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7




Price is $650 Plus shipping. Shipping costs will normally not exceed $30 in most cases.

Fays2 own website has the pricing set lower, but after a discussion with Jim Fay, he informed me the prices are incorrect and will be changed.

Can you tell someone that is slowly grasping the concept of "what are you trying to fix?" when considering parts what a Watt's linkage fixes?

I was just curious what Solo class those would be allowed in. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up in the rule book.

Will this require a spring and shock change too? Looking forward to reviews.

Let's see if I can answer all 3 in one post...

What are we "trying to fix"? The arc the PHB swing on as the suspension and body move up and down. Long PHB's have a lesser amount of arc than short ones, but it's still there. In fact on my car the PHB is set so that when viewed on 315's the LR body is actually not 100% centered. If I center the body the LR tire will rub the inner fender and the RR will rub the quarter panel due to the arc the PHB moves in as the car moves. And because of the way a PHB mounts, the roll center moves up and down depending on which way you are turning. The PHB acutally pushes up and pulls down on the body when you are going in different directions. A Watts link does not do this, there is no jacking up or down, and the axle moves truly veritically up and down but still has all the lateral control (and maybe even a bit more since the arms are shorter and stiffer than a roughly 4' long PHB that is more subject to flexing (which is why I don't use tubular aluminum PHB's).

Ever notice, if you have a data logger, or have seen logs that PHB don't pull the same G load though left and right hand corners? Even if you corner balance it perfectly, the dynamic change in the roll center height effects the balance of the car. To this point nobody has had a Watts for this car. I've been trying to do one, but I'm not a machinist and don't have the ability. This is something that has been long overdue for the truly serious, but for one reason or another nobody acutally got made. Been talked about for a long time for this car, and have been around for a LONG time for other cars. In fact the 1st generation Mazda RX7 had one stock (in 1978). Australian V8 Supercars use them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_Supercars). Trans-Am/GT1 cars use them (though I don't know they all do).

What classes are they legal for? ESP, SM... maybe in STX and STU too, but I'd have to read up on their rules. It is 100% ESP legal.

Shock and spring change needed? Nope. The upper most adjustment is at stock static roll center height (it moves up and down in action as stated before). You can drop it if you like (and some of you do). You can drop the roll center height in very small increments, .5" at a time if you see fit.

Howdy,

Sam, have you done a back to back test with this thing yet?

Mark

I have not, and don't claim to--yet. Nothing here I don't like but the little gain in unsprung weight, and that's so minor considering the mass we already carry.

I will, and I'm sure it'll be easier to drive (which I'm looking forward to). I might just have to un-retire the Camaro for 2009....

Howdy,



I'll be interested to hear results from the test... Hopefully you'll do a true back to back with the panhard vs. the watts link.

Its certainly true that it seems like anyone that's serious (that can) uses a watts link rather than a panhard. I've always wondered if that was a "real" difference or something more theoretical than anything else.

Mark

It looks like adjusting the roll center height could be done in minutes with ramps. Just loosen the center bolt, slide it to where you wnat it, tighten bolt, done! Small changes in the roll center height can be used to fine-tune the handling, and don't necessarily require spring and shock changes.

My roll center is set somewhere in the ballpark of 3/4~1" lower than Sam's (using the PHR), and I'm still using 150 springs and Koni 3rd gen rear shocks on the second softest setting. I do run a stiffer rear bar though.

OTOH, if you want to drop it the full 3.5" allowed by the Watts setup (which I don't think Sam is suggesting), you will probably need to change the springs and shocks.

Coincidentally, I have a test-n-tune coming up in mid August. Hmmm....

Sam, do you know if that will clear an AAM/SS diff cover?

Chris asked it if would require a spring and shock change. As long as you current roll center height is between stock and 3.5" lower your current setup will work. The more you play with the height, you might find you want to tweak springs, shocks, and/or bars to best match, but that's not any different than when we play with any number of other things.

And yep, the height adjustment is easy. As far as I can see the only hassle will be having to remove the link to do gear work/oil changes because the diff cover becomes a bit hidden.

The diff cover will not be an issue as far I can tell. I mentioned elsewhere (maybe not here), that the swaybar has to rotate up and behind the diff cover, and the Watts does not hinder that movement. In fact I've seen cars where the rear bar has dragged an AAM cover under compression.

That's 2 orders so far.

FWIW, I'm taking pre-orders. You order, but I don't charge the card until I get the word they are getting ready to ship. When I have a more exact ETA, I'll post the date. As of now it's scheduled to be within 3 weeks.

Sam,

Does installation require any permanent changes to the car or does it just bolt up to existing brackets?

Thanks,

"True Bolt in design. No welding, cutting, and uses factory mounting points"

OK, so I missed that part.

Hmm, so will this play nicely with those folks who have the UETA and say 300lb rear springs due to lowering the rear PHB 4"? Oh, does it come in black?

Eliminating lateral movement of the axle should actually make setting up the UETA slightly easier.

It sounds like the Watts setup will allow you to get the roll center to within about 1/2" of your lowered PHB setup. That may make the car slightly looser. On the OTOH, since the roll center won't be moving around as much with the Watts setup, slightly looser may be OK.

I'm glad you asked about a black finish option. I'd prefer that too, but I can live with red

I'm interested... but its gotta come in black

I'll have to check on black. I'm not sure if that can be done or not, but I could care less. I'm getting it for what it does, not what it looks like.

If the roll center heights are set the same the result should be similar, but with less change in RC height (basically none) with the Watts vs. it moving both up and down to some degree with the PHB.

It's no big deal for me either way, but IF there's a choice, I'd take discrete chassis black I certainly wouldn't delay my order for it.

are there anymore pics of it ?

I wonder if the welded-in UE PHB lowering brackets and brace tube will interfere with this?

It mounts to the stock location PHB body and brace mounts.... I can't say if brackets will effect installation, I guess it depends on how the body side bracket is welded in.

Any more pics? Not on my website, but there are some I can e-mail only.

Again, I'm checking on black.

I'm interested in one... if they don't come in black, first thing I'll do is strip it down and spray paint it black... .
Sam, let me know before you send any C5 exhaust to my place so that we can ship the whole thing together for both cars.
Thanks.

They can't ship together anyway....

Besides, do you want to wait on a month, two, a year until Ron decides what he wants to do (if anything) with his exhaust? The last message I got amounted to "that's about $2000, I'll have to think about it.

Judging from the photo, I think the body side may be OK with the UE PHB lowering setup. At most, you may have to grind just a little off the end of the Watts link brace (below/outboard of the lower bolt hole of the stock bracket). It looks like there's room to do that without affecting the strength at all. However, there's a gap between the plate bridging the sides of the UE bracket extension and the sheet metal bridging the sides of the stock bracket, so you might not need to grind at all. Either way, it looks like no big deal and it should be fully reversible/swappable [at that end].

The axle bracket extension itself should not be a problem. However, the bracing tube might interfere with the Watts bracket that bolts to that side.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with job that the welder (not me) did, and decided that making it adjustable as Jon A did sounded like a good idea. I sawed the tube back off flush with the axle tube and bracket using a Sawzall bimetallic blade to slice through the weld, then cleaned it up with an angle grinder and Dremel. I paid more attention to getting the bracket smooth and flat than to getting the axle tube perfect (also didn't want to thin the axle tube any). So, there's probably still enough residual evidence on the axle tube that I'll be able to tell if it would have interfered, or may even need to dress it a bit with a file. I'll let you know.

I did add a brace tube on the outboard side (welded inboard of the bearing), but never got around to rebracing it enough on the inboard side to allow lowering the PHB [the rest of the way]. It isn't that big a deal to cut off the existing brace tube, and should you ever decide to reinstall the PHB for some reason, you could go ahead and make it adjustable, and weld the brace at a different angle that would allow the UE PHB and Watts setups to be fully interchangeable in the future.

Another question... any issues with exhaust clearances when the intermediate pipe roughts over the axle?... or is some "massaging" required? Given the wide variety of exhaust systems, I'd assume the later is true?

Thx

None.. in fact there is actually a little more room than with the PHB Brace in place (you don't need it because the way the Watts is, the entire thing is bolted to both the left side "brace mount" and the right side PHB/Brace mount on the body.

Color update:

Fays2 has used Red since they started building these... When I asked about black he was a little suprised that the color might make or break a sale on such a big part (that's not available anywhere else).

That said, he told me he'd consider it. The issue is he has to run batches to the powdercoater and it's just more trouble to do it all the way around. More cost, more time, and more overhead when you now have to carry two of the same part, but for a color change.

In the end, orders speak. If I get a number of orders who prefer black I think we can make that happen. But you have to get your pre-orders in, and soon so I can arrange any possibility of a black option. Those pre-orders need to have a notation on them that you prefer black if that's the case.
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Shipping update:

Shipping within the next 3 weeks was the word I got today. First come, first served. Early orders go out first
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Fitment update:

A unit was test fitted to a car with a Dana S60 rear, and also a 12-bolt rear. The bottom line is that you will order by axle tube size. We cannot be responsible for all the different axle tubes that might be around (there are at least a couple). The Watts Link is standard for the car, only the axle clamps vary--you'll just need to measure your tube diameter to make sure we send you the correct size.

Hey Sam,
I want to play too!
Color doesn't matter to me, but If batch numbers are important to Fays2, I'd be okay with black if it means that the color becomes a possibility available to others.
Oh yea nice courses this past weekend. Pit-bike or golf cart? Its just too bad I suck.
call me if you need to.
Ted B

I chose black for my parts because I don't like the bling factor of red. *shrug* It won't prevent me from buying it but I won't be in the first batch - because of other bills, not because of the color.

If you want to play, you need to go order it (easier for me to keep track). http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7 You can just leave me a note on the color (you do care, you don't care....).

Glad you liked the courses Ted, wish I could have run them. And neither a bike or cart, I walked most of the time setting that up, and my foot paid for it dearly until today.

I understand... I'm not big on red either.

It's your friend.

Sounds fair to me, since I think I'm either first or second in line

and I think I am 3rd or 4th....plus I don't care WHAT color it is as long as I can make it go fast.

If you want to play, you need to go order it (easier for me to keep track). http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7 You can just leave me a note on the color (you do care, you don't care....).
/quote]

DONE!

Sam,

I can see how the center pivot is adjustable up and down, which allows for roll center height adjustment. Is there also an allowance for vertical adjustment of the axle side of the horizontal links? I believe that optimum benefit of the Watt's linkage occurs when both horizontal bars are parallel to each other and to the axle and the vertical bar is perpendicular to these links when the car is sitting at ride height. If not, I think the non-optimal geometry has the potential to introduces scrub in either one or both turning directions.

Second, Do the rear brake lines which run along the axle need to be rerouted to clear the Watt's linkage axle mounts?

I will be wanting a Moser 12 bolt version.

I need a motor installed be fore this though.

I am curious if this would make it launch a little truer at the drag strip?

Is there any difference between 3-channel and 4-channel cars in the hard line routing on the axles tubes? I know there will be an extra rubber line from the chassis to the axle on the 4 channel cars, but is that only different at the center?

That adjustment depends solely on where you position the clamps and you can rotate them wherever you think you need them to be. Howvever if you check out some of the vids and things on Youtube, you can see them in action. Here's the thing, because there are two rods and they are equal length, they work opposite of each other. When one shortens, the other lengthens, in effect. This one video shows how it works in action (no drawing, real pictures): http://youtube.com/watch?v=-J4xkHuP7QY

The links should be set up to be equal in length. They should also, ideally be set up such that at ride height, the links are parallel and horizontal. However, as the suspension moves up and down from there, the Watts link still works as long as plenty of travel has been designed in.

So in practice, the main thing is to get the links horizontal, parallel, and equal in length at some point in the suspension travel, with the axle level. Moving the pivot up or down from there should still be OK. Now, you should be reasonable about it - don't set up the links with the suspension at full droop, but ....

The so-called "propeller" (aka bellcrank) should probably be vertical somewhere in the ballpark of halfway through the suspension travel just so you maintain plenty of travel. [probably wrong, see below]

It is important that the arms be horizontal when they are parallel (with the axle level), or there will be some unintended lateral movement as the suspension moves vertically.

In practice just set it up with the suspension loaded, the chassis and axle level, the links level and equal in length, and then verify that there is plenty of travel (ie that the in full droop the bellcrank doesn't reach horizontal).

The you tube video isn't working.

All Watt's linkages do introduce scrub at their extreme travel point. However, depending on the length and ratio of the arms vs. the suspension travel of the axle, it may or may not be possible to get into that part of the curve with this system.

Just to make sure I completely understand the proper way to set up this system.
1. It appears that the axle mounts should be set so that they are parallel to ground to minimize the potential for binding during axle travel. (assuming the ground is flat and level) and that they should be mounted equal distance from the center line of the axle. This assumes that the watts linkage pivot is at the center line of the car and one wants the axle centered about the center line of the vehicle.
2. The two horizontal arms must be adjusted so that they are equal length. This is extremely important! If they are not equal length, then the benefit of the Watt's linkage may not be fully realized.
3. The vertical bar will not necessary be at 90 degrees to the horizontal bar at ride height (This will depend on the ride height of the vehicle and the roll center height setting)
4. Slide the center pivot up or down to to adjust the roll center and don't worry if the vertical bar is not at 90 degrees (as long as the horizontal bars are equal length and the axle mounts are properly located).

It would appear to me that a good starting point for the roll center would be at the middle of the axle because at this setting the linkages should be in there proper ride height alignment (parallel and 90) if everything is adjusted correctly (equal length parallel arms, the center pivot is centered on the vertical bar and the axle mounts are equal distant from the center pivot and the axle center). Since there really is not adjustment to the height of the axle mounts, it appears that the "ideal" alignment will only occur at this position. (Ideal meaning that both horizontal bars are perfectly parallel and the vertical bar is at exactly 90°)

My only concern,and this may be unfounded, is that the further the bars are away from "ideal" ride height alignment the system moves closer to the "scrubbing" part of the watt's linage curve.

The video just worked for me. Try again. http://youtube.com/watch?v=-J4xkHuP7QY

No, the axle mounts should not be parallel to the ground. The links should be parallel to the ground when they are parallel with each other.

The video works fine for me, but it shows a setup with the pivot mounted on the axle instead of the chassis.With that setup, the roll center stays at a constant height relative to the ground instead of relative to the chassis CG.

What I mean is that the "arms" of the axle mounts should be parallel to the ground. So they should stick straight back from the axle just like they do in the picture..

When I try watching the video I get a "We're sorry, this video is no longer available" It may be the firewall here at work, I'll have to try it when I get home.

Nope, look closer at the picture The arms should not be level. The aluminum links should be level, and to accomplish that the driver's side mount will be angled upward and the passenger side will be angled downward (or vice-versa, except that would probably interfere with the exhaust).

Ok, I see it now, they are angled up and down (Man my eyes are starting to get old). They must be angled up and down an equal amount so that the arms are angled equally from the center pivot along the center line of the car in order to maintain an equal distance from the pivot.

Ok, here's another question. So the arms are attached to the axle tubes, what keeps them from slipping along horizontal length of the tube? Just the normal force and friction of the axle clamps? Should that area of the axle be "prepped" before installation (i.e. all rust removed).

One would think that this might be better than the current design because the current design only loads the axle in one spot and this design loads the axle in two spots, thus better distributing the load. Right?

Friction/clamping is what holds the watts in place on the axle. However, as someone mentioned there is no reason that someone couldn't tack weld just to be safe if they wanted.

In looking at the design of some others for S197 Mustangs (also a PHB/PHB brace car and in fact of the same weight and a PHB only about 1" longer than a F-body) I think the Fays2 design is better. Check out what they are selling for $999 in comparison: http://steeda.com/products/steeda_watts_link_s197.php How about Saleen's Watts? http://www.haneymotorsport.com/HMSstang/HM...smustanglrg.JPG Also for about $1k and uses the diff cover as the axle mount. I don't know about you, but I trust clamping on the axle tubes a lot more.

I suggest that a good search for Watts Link would start. But more specifically look for '05+ Mustang stuff, as they are very similar in rear suspension and weight. Hell even the rear springs are on the axle now (stock rate of about 130 btw). Sorry to say they have a leg up here on us due to numbers. There are a lot more Ford junkies than F-body ones, so despite the PHB arrangement being in place for 20 years from 1982-2002, it's just now that we are getting some of this stuff. I've been trying, but sometimes life intervenes.

Well, it probably does make sense to do the initial setup with the pivot on the centerline of the axle at ride height. After all the lengths and angles are correct, and the axle is centered properly, then you can move the pivot (roll center) height to the desired position. As you said, the angles should be equal too.

Then lower the axle to full droop, and if the bellcrank is nearly horizontal, lengthen both links by the same amount and recheck.

While the axle centering can be fine-tuned by adjusting the links, that will lead to one being longer than the other. For that reason, I would preset the links to the same length, and position the arm/clamps to get the axle as close to center as possible before changing the links. If done right the first time, there should be no reason to ever move the clamps.

Of course, the setup tricks will also get some fine tuning after we start getting a few installed