FINALLY AutoX'd Options

[Smitty2919]

Well from the first time I took a ride in my brother in law's 87 road race prepped Vette, I was hooked. I had a 03 Mach 1 5spd at the time and WANTED to race it. For one reason or another I didn't and was too nervous to break something. Next car was a 04 GTO M6 that was good for nothing but straight lines and cruising in comfort, plus being $$$ to modify other than engine and trans related. At this point I got the itch BAD and on a drive home from being at Mid-Ohio with by mother/father in law doing ride-alongs. I said to my wife "man I'd really love to do that someday". Her comment "Well why don't you? Do something about it." Which basically meant "Put Up or Shut Up" in a nice way...

That night the GTO went up for sale. 2 weeks go by until I traded for a 99 Cobra 5spd plus cash to get a cheaper platform that I knew and beat on that...well at 110K mi and the less than desirable 99 IRS...that took a hike for a 95 Z28 M6 with 60k mi. I should have for a F-Body a LONG time ago. The driving position vs the Mustangs are much better, the feel of the car is much better as well.

What I started with:
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/1472860_732816749223_689502629_n.jpg)

(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/1469840_732816829063_989692030_n.jpg)

60K mi
B&M Shifter
Pacesetter L/T's and catless mids
Borla Adjustable catback
Front strut brace
K&N CAI
Bolt in SFC's
Adj PHB
Staggered ZR1's 17x9.5 17x11
Stock shocks/springs and boxed rear LCA's.

Since then I have done the following:
Custom CAI (because I can and wanted to something "different")
Square setup on factory SS wheels with Nitto NT555's 275/40/17
Added catch can
Added PS cooler
Removed borla muffler and tips and replaced with Hooker Max Flow muffler with hidden tip
LS1 front brake swap and SS braided lines (front only)
Added Oil Pressure and Water Temp gaues on A pillar
Dyno Tune made 311/346 at the wheels

How it sits now:
(IMG:https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/10003279_760355072203_7413266042514964638_n.jpg)

(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/10151865_760007892953_1485670537_n.jpg)

Making that stock suspension do work!
(IMG:https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/10153803_760008421893_979298018_n.jpg)

(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/10155001_760008681373_1513999466_n.jpg)

(IMG:https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10003964_760007738263_1893165921_n.jpg)

I had a great time and learned a lot about car control. Saturday was a Test and Tune, Sunday was first official points event. Saturday I got about 6 or so runs and Sunday only got 3 in my heat. Had Zero car issues, weather was nice except for damn wind and was able to take my wife for a run. Good times!

BUT now I have a big problem...I made a large "wish list" for car goodies (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Smitty2919: Apr 7 2014, 04:57 PM

[trackbird]

Yea, that wish list doesn't seem to get shorter as you go. There's almost always something else on the list. Sounds like you're hooked.

[CrashTestDummy]

Nice! Is that a B4C? I seem to remember the B4C cars in that year all had black tops. Personally, I'd recommend you _drive_ the car for a year before jumping into the mods. If something breaks, then by all means, fix it with a desired part, but for now, learn to drive the car as-is. You'll surprised how quickly your time drops early on, then you'll probably plateau, and start wondering what you're doing wrong. Make no mods to the car you'll on the steep part of the learning curve, so you can't blame the car for your errors. Get good with that, then start working through the mod list based on the class you choose to run in.

That looks like a nice, big venue. Is it concrete, or asphalt?

Oh, and get the wife to co-drive. It's easier to pay for parts if she's involved. Ask me how I know. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

This post has been edited by CrashTestDummy: Apr 7 2014, 06:05 PM

[Smitty2919]

Yep I am hooked. While I made a big wish list, no mods will be made this season for the exact reason CrashTestDummy mentioned. I'm sure there is plenty of things I can improve upon. Only until I can drive better than the car will allow will I add mods.

The CAI/Tune/gauges were simply to make sure car is running correct so I COULD beat on it. The cooler was simply to prolong the life of the PS pump.

It was all concrete slabs at an airport. So it was nice and open with no light poles to worry about and plenty of run off space if you made a mistake.

I by no means am planning to be real competitive right now. This season will be simply to learn and have fun and figure out what class I want to be in. From the stuff the car already has I was in ESP or FSP.

I need to figure out what class I will run and what cars I will be against if I go with springs/shocks, Watts Link, torque arm relocation mount, race seat steering wheel, rod/poly rear LCA's

For a DD I think that is as crazy as I will go. MAYBE those mods are a little too much for a DD I don't know.

Other thing I'm kinda bummed about is that I won't know if I am getting better or not. The course will never be the same at each event and I will only have 3-4 runs per event to drive. So I will only have 3-4 runs to make a direct time comparison to. I know I ran a best of 110.553 Sunday for THAT course design. Next event will be a different course so I can't say that a 109.xxx is better or worse than my 110.553 time. Plus there is no way for them to say "the average time for this course is 105.xxx" So if I ran a 110 on a 105 track, I know where I stand OVERALL. It's not like road racing where I can run a 2 minute lap one weekend, come back the next weekend and run a 1min55 sec lap, which obviously will show I drove better since the course did not change lol.

The GOOD thing is every run I made, I progressively made better times...so I was happy about that.

This post has been edited by Smitty2919: Apr 7 2014, 06:27 PM

[JimMueller]

Glad you enjoyed yourself. Any idea what the fastest time was on that course, because I've never been lucky enough to have much more than a 60s course (one of my gripes).

[Smitty2919]

Fastest time I think was around 54 or 55 sec.

[trackbird]

Other thing I'm kinda bummed about is that I won't know if I am getting better or not. The course will never be the same at each event and I will only have 3-4 runs per event to drive.

Figure out who the fast guys are (pick someone in your class, find a guy in a Corvette, etc) and watch where you are relative to their times. One of the guys who helped me when I was a novice ran a Corvette on non DOT sticky tires. At the end of 2005 I actually beat him by about .5 seconds in raw times (him in the Corvette and me in my SM Camaro Z28). We weren't in the same class (he likely had the faster car) but I managed to beat him raw time to raw time. I had never caught him before. And I could usually judge my times based on his times. You'll learn "I'm usually 1.6 seconds slower than driver X on a 55 second course", etc. Pick a few cars with experienced drivers and track times as you close in on them (or at least get closer).

[CrashTestDummy]

Alternatively, if your region posts the PAX results, you can more or less compare yourself with your finish in that list. PAX is based on a multiplier that the finish time is multiplied by in an attempt to 'equalize' the field so you can compare your time against a different car, like a B Modified car, for example. It's not perfect, but pretty close. I use it to see how updates to the car have helped, or hindered, the car, and to monitor my tire status, since tire performance drops off pretty quickly after about 30-40 runs for us.

[Smitty2919]

Thanks guys.

I'm already wanting to get back out there like tomorrow lol.

For the long term mods list, how would you guys rank the following in order of importance/bang for the buck:

Race seat (I would like it on a slider and able to recline for DD use but that = more $$) $200-$400ish?
Gen4Racing harness bar $420
harness $??
Steering wheel $200-$300
Strano springs/shocks HP2.5 (go single adjustable or double adjustable?) $630
Strano Swaybars $370
Fays2 Watts link (my Adj PHB likes to clunk under hard cornering and I have tightened the crap out of the bolts lol) $650
Rod/Poly rear LCA's $200ish
Torque arm relocation mount (honestly thought about making my own) $250

This is my GRAND list that I will work at getting in the LONG run.

Also is it the front UCA or LCA's that get you more camber? I was told by a fellow FBody racer that I trust his opinion to run between -1.5* and -1.75* to keep it DD friendly but also get a benefit on the course. I'm currently maxed out at -0.5 lol.

[trackbird]

Thanks guys.

I'm already wanting to get back out there like tomorrow lol.

For the long term mods list, how would you guys rank the following in order of importance/bang for the buck:

Strano Swaybars $370
PHB (Rod/Rod or Rod/Poly) - It's reasonably cheap "bang for the buck" (I have one that clunks, it's a poly/poly adjustable and it needs to go)
Strano springs/shocks HP2.5 (go single adjustable or double adjustable?) $630
Brake pads....

Then, drive the car and drive it until you can get virtually everything out of it.

I'd avoid race seats in a daily driver. I don't like harnesses in a daily driver. I never needed a steering wheel.

Race seat (I would like it on a slider and able to recline for DD use but that = more $$) $200-$400ish?
Gen4Racing harness bar $420
harness $??
Steering wheel $200-$300
Fays2 Watts link (my Adj PHB likes to clunk under hard cornering and I have tightened the crap out of the bolts lol) $650
Rod/Poly rear LCA's $200ish
Torque arm relocation mount (honestly thought about making my own) $250

This is my GRAND list that I will work at getting in the LONG run.

Also is it the front UCA or LCA's that get you more camber? I was told by a fellow FBody racer that I trust his opinion to run between -1.5* and -1.75* to keep it DD friendly but also get a benefit on the course. I'm currently maxed out at -0.5 lol.

Upper control arms.

[JimMueller]

Seat time
Seat time
Seat time
Seat time
Strano springs/shocks (Singles)
Strano Swaybars

And don't forget about seat time (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I say safety first, everything else as needed depending how you feel the car is misbehaving. I have had Global West UCA's with Del-a-lum bearings for almost a decade now, minimum camber is -1.2, max is at least -2, never maxed it out. My Unbalanced Engineering dual-heim PHB is completely silent, and I've never replaced the heims since I purchased it almost a decade ago.

[mr.beachcomber]

Kevin's advice is right on. Find someone who is a consistent participant as well as a hot shoe as your benchmark for the year. I've found that having novices take notes while walking the course and drawing a course map helps driver awareness of such things as distance between slalom cones, e.g. equal or decreasing towards the end. Once you understand how the course flows, you can mark the key cones and draw your intended line.

Our region allows novices to have ride-along instructors for their timed runs if they want them. (The instructors pretty much function as safety backups, and try to keep the novice on course looking ahead towards the next set of elements.) We also allow anyone to ride along with other drivers AFTER the passenger has completed all timed runs.

If you can't have an instructor or ride along with a helpful hot shoe, video of your runs is the next best friend. Even if you don't have a video camera yet, or can't borrow one, review the videos posted on line by the local hot shoes to see how they drove the same course. (This is where having a hand-drawn course map helps in the comparison.)

Whatever you do, have fun! Hope this helps. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Smitty2919]

So to sum it up...

Seat time seat time seat time lol
Spring/Single Shocks
Brake Pads (I thought maybe HAWK HPS or HP+)
Rear LCA's

Only reason I said seat/harness was so I could put less effort into keeping my left knee pinned against the drivers door to keep me in the seat lol.

I came across a AEM data logger that has a built in GPS tracking unit and accelerometer. Having an engineering mind, I would LOVE this thing since it would draw the course for you and
also record braking and acceleration. That way you can analyze each run to see if you are braking too soon/late accelerating too soon/late etc.

Can make overlays similar to Google Maps how it shows green sections of road for being clear and red/yellow sections for being traffic. Green would be acceleration, red would be braking. You can see if you are still braking while turning etc. Then couple that with a GoPro video.

I'm positive that's too much technology for my driving level, but it would be neat to play with. I'm sure they sell much more expensive data acquisition units...but I have other things to buy first LOL.

[trackbird]

So to sum it up...

Seat time seat time seat time lol
Sway bars
Quality PHB
Spring/Single Shocks
Brake Pads (I thought maybe HAWK HPS or HP+)

Only reason I said seat/harness was so I could put less effort into keeping my left knee pinned against the drivers door to keep me in the seat lol.

If you have a 4th gen, google "CG Lock" and buy one. That fixes the harness issues. I ran one forever.

Now, look at my list above (and know that it's after "seat time, seat time, seat time, seat time, etc). Sway bars are reasonably inexpensive and they make a HUGE difference. These cars lose camber during body roll (the upper control arm is pushed out towards the contact patch), reducing roll allows for much better handling due to keeping the contact patch flatter on the ground. The rear bar balances the front. Buy a 35mm solid front or the 36 to 36.5mm hollow front bars that are available. Add a 21mm solid rear or a 22mm hollow rear once you get comfortable with the car. A bar is cheap and you can do it in a weekend. Put it first on the list (or on the list with a quality PHB, 1,2 or 2,1, whatever but make those first). I'm not saying to get a watts link. I'm saying you can go real fast on an aftermarket phb at stock height. I'm not a national level driver, but I won a local championship in SM2 (just to avoid all the turbo cars in SM) using stock LCA's and 315/35-17's and a rod/rod phb at stock height (springs, swaybars and koni's with global west front upper control arms). You can drive that setup for years and get very fast on it. Once you're really at the limit (which is about 2 years after you think you've reached it in most cases...based on the law of averages), go for watts links and other such stuff. But you can build a super capable car without spending as much money.


My car was:

Koni DA's (SA's work very well 99% of the benefit for far less cost)
Springs (H&R 600 in lb fronts, Ground control 150 in lb rears)
Global West front upper control arms with Del-a-lum bushings
Hotpart Rod/Rod phb
STB (I think it takes some cowl shake out of the car, not sure it really does much else)
SLP SFC's
Stock rear LCA's
B&M Ripper shifter
17x11 ZR1's with 315/35-17 tires

Stock exhaust, stock tune, never had a valve cover off of the car. I just drove it.

[CrashTestDummy]

In an alternate view to Kevin, I actually DO prefer harnesses, even in a daily driver. BUT, ONLY USE THE HARNESSES FOR AUTOCROSSING (yes, I meant to yell). Most harnesses aren't approved for highway use, and the factory seat belts will do a better job on the street anyway.

In our B4C Camaro, we have lap belts only. In our SVO, and Z28, we have 4-point harnesses. The SVO has a low-rise bucket that the shoulder harnesses can easily fit over. In the Z28, we found a set of factory seats a PO had modified with slots in the seat back to fit the harnesses. While none of these are DD cars, they do get driven on the street, and the harnesses just stay in the car, unused, when we're driving on the street.

The harnesses will hold you in your seat, preventing you from moving around much, letting you use the wheel to turn the car, instead of hold you in the seat while maneuvering through the course. IMHO, it improves the feel of the steering wheel, allowing for better car control.

[trackbird]

In an alternate view to Kevin, I actually DO prefer harnesses, even in a daily driver. BUT, ONLY USE THE HARNESSES FOR AUTOCROSSING (yes, I meant to yell). Most harnesses aren't approved for highway use, and the factory seat belts will do a better job on the street anyway.

I generally don't like them because "somebody" will wind up using them one day (a friend borrows the car and says "these are cool, I'll try them", etc). And if they aren't there, that can't happen. I agree that harnesses will keep you in place and get you better attached to the car. A lap belt is a good compromise. We did that in my 3rd gen before the cage was finished. So there are options (and there are lots of ways to mount seat belts/harnesses that aren't safe like stacking the lap belt under the bolt heads for the existing belts, etc). Hence my advice to avoid them (at least until a later date).

I just wanted to clarify. I'm not saying they are a bad idea. Just that there are lots of ways to do it "wrong" and therefore I push it down the list. I ran a CG lock in my 4th gen and that worked well enough for my uses and was a great compromise.

Your results may vary.

[SuperMacGuy]

I really like the race seat in my TA (Sparco). It's a "nice day" driver, not daily driver, but I could no longer AX without a serious race seat, and I don't need a whole harness, regular belts are good enough for me. It's more about controlling my butt laterally that really matters. But as a daily driver car, the race seats are a real pain to get in/out quickly/easily/smoothly. I have my seat on a slider to make it easier.

[axoid]

My car is not a daily driver but still street driven and I have a fixed race seat. It is a pain getting in and out of, but comfortable enough when driving.

I have harnesses in the car and love them for autocross and I do use them on the street. Just because it isn't "approved" for the street, doesn't mean it isn't safe. The factory belt is a joke with the race seat. The lap belt is suspended a 1.5" from me, going over the side bolsters, and the shoulder belt settles right over my neck. Every time I think of using the factory belt and consider a crash, I see that belt snapping my neck. I don't think the factory belt is safe in my car.

[trackbird]

My car is not a daily driver but still street driven and I have a fixed race seat. It is a pain getting in and out of, but comfortable enough when driving.

I have harnesses in the car and love them for autocross and I do use them on the street. Just because it isn't "approved" for the street, doesn't mean it isn't safe. The factory belt is a joke with the race seat. The lap belt is suspended a 1.5" from me, going over the side bolsters, and the shoulder belt settles right over my neck. Every time I think of using the factory belt and consider a crash, I see that belt snapping my neck. I don't think the factory belt is safe in my car.

Agreed....(but you have a roll bar). (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smitty2919]

Trackbird, i noticed you said a QUALITY PHB. in your eyes, what is a quality one? I currently have a UMI one I believe in a poly/rod setup that is on-car adjustable.