[ESPCamaro]

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

[axoid]

Not only have tires gotten more expensive, but if you used to run wide 17" tires you are basically hosed. It's nearly impossible to find a 17" tire wider than 255. You need to move up to at least a 18" wheel.

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

[ESPCamaro]

Not only have tires gotten more expensive, but if you used to run wide 17" tires you are basically hosed. It's nearly impossible to find a 17" tire wider than 255. You need to move up to at least a 18" wheel.

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

I saw that come up a few times. I’d really like to run a 17” wheel in the back and planned on an 18” wheel up front anyhow.
It looks like for somewhat affordable wheels though I’m definitely stuck with 18’s. Maybe a 335/30/18 frt 345/30/18 rear combo in the future? LOL

When I last bought R comps it was v710’s at $200 each in front and $225 each in rear. That’s less than half per tire of today’s A7

[axoid]

Those tire prices are a little misleading. Hoosier has always been significantly more expensive than Kumho.

That's why I never ran Hoosiers. I wasn't good enough to make use of the 10% advantage that Hoosier might provide, specially for the 50% to 75% price premium.

[SuperMacGuy]

I've got a set of CCW 17x11s for sale, with or with out tires (probably without soon, they'll be used up). And set of lightly used and new tires, 315 a6's. Shipping from central PA. Check it out in the classified section; PM me or post with questions. FWIW I didn't think getting Hoosiers in 17" seemed a problem, that's why I have these wheels. But my planned brake upgrade won't fit under them, that's why the sale.

[ESPCamaro]

I've got a set of CCW 17x11s for sale, with or with out tires (probably without soon, they'll be used up). And set of lightly used and new tires, 315 a6's. Shipping from central PA. Check it out in the classified section; PM me or post with questions. FWIW I didn't think getting Hoosiers in 17" seemed a problem, that's why I have these wheels. But my planned brake upgrade won't fit under them, that's why the sale.

I’ve heard you can’t get parts for them. I’d want to run 12” wide wheels and an 18” front wheel
Sounds like I’ll probably go with forgestars

[slowTA]

Sounds like I’ll probably go with forgestars

Make sure they run straight, a few people here and locally ran into issues with bent wheels out of the box.

[CrashTestDummy]

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

Mark Madarash has moved to CP. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[landstuhltaylor]

I've got a set of CCW 17x11s for sale, with or with out tires (probably without soon, they'll be used up). And set of lightly used and new tires, 315 a6's. Shipping from central PA. Check it out in the classified section; PM me or post with questions. FWIW I didn't think getting Hoosiers in 17" seemed a problem, that's why I have these wheels. But my planned brake upgrade won't fit under them, that's why the sale.

I’ve heard you can’t get parts for them. I’d want to run 12” wide wheels and an 18” front wheel
Sounds like I’ll probably go with forgestars

Depends on the age of the wheel. I think it's the 20 bolt centers you can't get parts for but check to make sure. They do still make wheels and parts in that size for the newer centers.

[rpoz-29]

I bought 275-40-17 Nitto NT-01's earlier this year. I'm pretty much an F/S car on R comps. But there truly is not much in the 200 tread wear world for the stock 16" or 17" wheels.

[GCrites80s]

Are the good tires such as the Rival and ZIII suited to heavy cars, at least in 40 and up aspect ratios? That might be why a seemingly popular size such as 275/40-17 isn't available.

[BigEnos]

A7s are competitive over a much longer lifespan than A6s were if you are still thinking ESP. Also, I think 17s are a viable choice on a 4th gen still if you run Hoosiers.

[ESPCamaro]

The lack of participation, the cost of tires and the rule set means I’m going to run in CAM C next year.
Those BFG Rival S definitely don’t have the grip I used back in the day
Then again I haven’t autox’d in so long even the 200TW tires will be fun

[SuperMacGuy]

As much as I complain about CAM classes, I may do the same. I am getting tired of changing tires (I'm a tire-in-car and change-at-event person). I'm the only one in my entire region who really does that. Other guys on R tires on are on trailers. So I can change at home and drive there on BFG's or whatever. No more FTDs for a while probably. My car is still hardware-wise ESP but I may run in CAM to give the new CAM guys some well deserved fear.

[ESPCamaro]

Yeah I’d like to see the new Camaro/Mustang cars have there hands full of an old straight axle 4th gen

There is definitely a weight advantage to the car I’m building (LT1 chassis/Aluminum LS

[ESPCamaro]

Nothing is as nice as driving your car on a trailer and driving home trust me!
I did the tire swap routine for two years before buying a trailer.
Unfortunately I’m going to have to buy another trailer too

[ESPCamaro]

As much as I complain about CAM classes, I may do the same. I am getting tired of changing tires (I'm a tire-in-car and change-at-event person). I'm the only one in my entire region who really does that. Other guys on R tires on are on trailers. So I can change at home and drive there on BFG's or whatever. No more FTDs for a while probably. My car is still hardware-wise ESP but I may run in CAM to give the new CAM guys some well deserved fear.

What are your complaints about the CAM classes

[SuperMacGuy]

Without typing for 30 minutes, it sort of boils down to the rules being totally open. That people take literally new cars and class them in the class primarily meant for resto-mod type cars. All the other traditional classes are really tightly defined.

[CrashTestDummy]

Without typing for 30 minutes, it sort of boils down to the rules being totally open. That people take literally new cars and class them in the class primarily meant for resto-mod type cars. All the other traditional classes are really tightly defined.

Pretty much. I have one friend with a BSP Vette who is moving to CAM, another friend who has a 3rd Gen Camaro who ran in CAM until our region mad a local class that suited him better, and a third friend with a ‘18 ZL1 1LE SS Camaro who runs CAM. He ran CAM in his ‘16 1LE SS Camaro, too.

[ESPCamaro]

One thing that has changed for sure.....
All forums are way slower than back in the day. Information online is definitely harder to come by

[SuperMacGuy]

Internet slowness is a product of a few things: Everyone wants rampant tracking - they want to see what every user clicks on, what they like, how long they stay on a page. This means 1 or many more javascript libraries and other things load on a page. There are web pages that take longer to load because there is 2MB of scripts and trackers, when the actual HTML content is 200kb and would load instantly. Also, on forums like this there is a database backing it and they get rather big. LS1Tech has millions, maybe billions of posts, that have to get fetched and rendered. It's not negligible. Try a search for a generic term. Here on FFRAX its reasonably fast. LS1T is decidedly slower, again due to sheer volume.
I'd say that actually data now is easier to come by. So many people have had issues and solved them for me already! The trick is to search for them, and get the real right answer. Certainly there is more chaff than wheat to sort through on some topics. The amount of "data" we internet-enabled humans have to deal with grows every year, and yeah it's a problem to some extent.

[landstuhltaylor]

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

(IMG:https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/30702097958_f613e77040_b.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTkhhg7hGs...eature=youtu.be

[79T/A]

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

(IMG:https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/30702097958_f613e77040_b.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTkhhg7hGs...eature=youtu.be

Fake news. Everyone says these old cars can’t compete.

[trackbird]

One thing that has changed for sure.....
All forums are way slower than back in the day. Information online is definitely harder to come by

Yea, we don't see the volume of posts or people that we did back in the early days. But, this site is likely one of the best repositories for information on these cars and for that reason I do my best to keep the lights on. If you can't find something, send me an email, I often remember old threads and can find things that are a little tricky to find.

So......a long long time ago I spent a bunch of time here. And then I didn’t (long story)

Well I’m pretty much set on the idea I’m going to be autocrossing a 4th gen again.

So what has changed?

Some things I’ve found already:
Tires are drastically more expensive
Available “good” r compound options are even more limited
Street prepared has some allowances I would have liked to have way back when
The “newer cars” have taken over ESP
Wheels have gone up in price. I think I only paid $400-450/wheel for CCW’s

CAM C looks like a class that I’d probably run in “most” of the time just for the participation.


What else has changed in 10 years LOL

(IMG:https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1855/30702097958_f613e77040_b.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTkhhg7hGs...eature=youtu.be

Bravo Sir! Well done.

[CrashTestDummy]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

[landstuhltaylor]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

There are some on Facebook under their profiles as well as on gotcone.com and all the other photographers sites. They had a V8 in it up until two weeks ago or so (it ran with the turbo 4 at Nats 2016 and blew up day 2). My understanding is that they have a hard time finding the turbo 4 parts but that it is much faster with that engine in it. Their first real runs in it were on the practice course on Wednesday and they were still tuning it on Thursday runs.

I'm still not sure how they justify gutting the back seat, but until it starts beating me I don't care.

And on that note, trying to get a custom diff made or get the Truetrac modified. If that doesn't work I'm probably bailing on ESP and codriving for a while until I can get a half-assed CP/CAM/SM build going. All the tricks I have up my sleeve won't be worth anything without a better diff and the G threw away what should have been an easy win with cones.

[mkm]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

There are some on Facebook under their profiles as well as on gotcone.com and all the other photographers sites. They had a V8 in it up until two weeks ago or so (it ran with the turbo 4 at Nats 2016 and blew up day 2). My understanding is that they have a hard time finding the turbo 4 parts but that it is much faster with that engine in it. Their first real runs in it were on the practice course on Wednesday and they were still tuning it on Thursday runs.

I'm still not sure how they justify gutting the back seat, but until it starts beating me I don't care.

And on that note, trying to get a custom diff made or get the Truetrac modified. If that doesn't work I'm probably bailing on ESP and codriving for a while until I can get a half-assed CP/CAM/SM build going. All the tricks I have up my sleeve won't be worth anything without a better diff and the G threw away what should have been an easy win with cones.

I have a T2R for sale if interested. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[slowTA]

What year was the T2R built?

[landstuhltaylor]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

There are some on Facebook under their profiles as well as on gotcone.com and all the other photographers sites. They had a V8 in it up until two weeks ago or so (it ran with the turbo 4 at Nats 2016 and blew up day 2). My understanding is that they have a hard time finding the turbo 4 parts but that it is much faster with that engine in it. Their first real runs in it were on the practice course on Wednesday and they were still tuning it on Thursday runs.

I'm still not sure how they justify gutting the back seat, but until it starts beating me I don't care.

And on that note, trying to get a custom diff made or get the Truetrac modified. If that doesn't work I'm probably bailing on ESP and codriving for a while until I can get a half-assed CP/CAM/SM build going. All the tricks I have up my sleeve won't be worth anything without a better diff and the G threw away what should have been an easy win with cones.

I have a T2R for sale if interested. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Same question as above, how old is it and how much use does it have? I'm just concerned how much life it has left.

I do have a possible lead on getting a custom diff made, hoping to get that ball rolling this weekend. If either of these pan out my next project will be tackling an M29 swap.

PJ and I compared data from his car which I think is the car to beat right now with the HR swap and 335s. The G was taking a bit wider line and was able to carry a bit more speed through the corner, but the LS pulls it on the straight. Slaloms were dead even and came down to me screwing up the entry. The diff burned me a bit on the two major rights on the course, but then I pulled and extra 1.5mph from 50-60 and 2.5mph from 60-70. That's with the tall stock gearing for an 81mph second. Anything over 40mph is an advantage for me.

This post has been edited by landstuhltaylor: Sep 11 2018, 11:23 PM

[CrashTestDummy]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

There are some on Facebook under their profiles as well as on gotcone.com and all the other photographers sites. They had a V8 in it up until two weeks ago or so (it ran with the turbo 4 at Nats 2016 and blew up day 2). My understanding is that they have a hard time finding the turbo 4 parts but that it is much faster with that engine in it. Their first real runs in it were on the practice course on Wednesday and they were still tuning it on Thursday runs.

I'm still not sure how they justify gutting the back seat, but until it starts beating me I don't care.

And on that note, trying to get a custom diff made or get the Truetrac modified. If that doesn't work I'm probably bailing on ESP and codriving for a while until I can get a half-assed CP/CAM/SM build going. All the tricks I have up my sleeve won't be worth anything without a better diff and the G threw away what should have been an easy win with cones.

Yeah, gotcone.com finally posted up ESP pics. Not much of a car. ESP-legal turbo 2.3s for that thing are starting to get rare, and parts expensive. Sad they're no longer running the turbo, but I can understand. The rear seats aren't that heavy in those cars. Heck, the folding rear seats in the hatch aren't that heavy, either, and we folded them down in our SVO to get the weight lower. I guess they pulled the back seats because racecar? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

I was amazed at the speed you were able to achieve in that thing without having to shift. 81 MPH, wow!

[mkm]

OH, is that landstuhltaylor here? Nice! Yes, well done, sir!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

On another note, does anyone have a link to a picture of that '81 'SVO'? As an SVO owner, inquiring minds want to know. I'd also be very interested in the list of update/backdate parts that were used, but that's for another list.

There are some on Facebook under their profiles as well as on gotcone.com and all the other photographers sites. They had a V8 in it up until two weeks ago or so (it ran with the turbo 4 at Nats 2016 and blew up day 2). My understanding is that they have a hard time finding the turbo 4 parts but that it is much faster with that engine in it. Their first real runs in it were on the practice course on Wednesday and they were still tuning it on Thursday runs.

I'm still not sure how they justify gutting the back seat, but until it starts beating me I don't care.

And on that note, trying to get a custom diff made or get the Truetrac modified. If that doesn't work I'm probably bailing on ESP and codriving for a while until I can get a half-assed CP/CAM/SM build going. All the tricks I have up my sleeve won't be worth anything without a better diff and the G threw away what should have been an easy win with cones.

I have a T2R for sale if interested. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Same question as above, how old is it and how much use does it have? I'm just concerned how much life it has left.

I do have a possible lead on getting a custom diff made, hoping to get that ball rolling this weekend. If either of these pan out my next project will be tackling an M29 swap.

PJ and I compared data from his car which I think is the car to beat right now with the HR swap and 335s. The G was taking a bit wider line and was able to carry a bit more speed through the corner, but the LS pulls it on the straight. Slaloms were dead even and came down to me screwing up the entry. The diff burned me a bit on the two major rights on the course, but then I pulled and extra 1.5mph from 50-60 and 2.5mph from 60-70. That's with the tall stock gearing for an 81mph second. Anything over 40mph is an advantage for me.

Diff is about 4 years old never had any wheel spin with it. It was one of the last ones sold.

Mark

[landstuhltaylor]

Yeah, gotcone.com finally posted up ESP pics. Not much of a car. ESP-legal turbo 2.3s for that thing are starting to get rare, and parts expensive. Sad they're no longer running the turbo, but I can understand. The rear seats aren't that heavy in those cars. Heck, the folding rear seats in the hatch aren't that heavy, either, and we folded them down in our SVO to get the weight lower. I guess they pulled the back seats because racecar? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

I was amazed at the speed you were able to achieve in that thing without having to shift. 81 MPH, wow!

They did run the turbo 4. I think they finished building it and got it in the car the Wednesday before Nats.

Stock 2nd is 78 but after Peru I bumped it to 6500rpm and 81mph. A bit risky with the 98 rod bolts and 165k but if it blows it blows. Only hit 73 on the courses this week so I think the M29 and either a 3.42 (71mph) or 3.23 (74mph) at 6500 would be much better and dig the car out of 35mph stuff a lot faster. Current peak is 0.52G accel at around the 56mph mark.

Diff is about 4 years old never had any wheel spin with it. It was one of the last ones sold.

Mark

Want to PM what you would want for it? I'm supposed to pull my diff to see if the guy thinks he can make something with at least a 4:1 TBR but obviously no idea just yet. I don't think it would be pre-loaded at all so may still not be quite as good as a T2R.

This post has been edited by landstuhltaylor: Sep 12 2018, 01:56 PM

[79T/A]

You need some preload in that thing, otherwise the investment wouldn’t be worth it. Can I ask who would be making/modifying the diff?

[landstuhltaylor]

You need some preload in that thing, otherwise the investment wouldn’t be worth it. Can I ask who would be making/modifying the diff?

http://franavehicles.com/


We are just at the is it possible stage. He made a diff for the Mazdaspeed6 that ran as well. My understanding is that it would not have any preload but I have not lifted a tire since I went to the softer front bar. It would need to have one hell of a bias ratio though as I do get close and I am bending in -0.6 camber to the rear this winter. Factory spec! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by landstuhltaylor: Sep 12 2018, 11:50 PM

[ESPCamaro]

What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

[trackbird]

What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission

[CrashTestDummy]

<SNIP>

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

Interesting! I knew the 1st Gen Shelby had a rear seat delete option, but didn't know it was an option for the Fox body. Still, the rear seats weigh nothing and are in the best place for any weight anyway.

[landstuhltaylor]

<SNIP>

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

Interesting! I knew the 1st Gen Shelby had a rear seat delete option, but didn't know it was an option for the Fox body. Still, the rear seats weigh nothing and are in the best place for any weight anyway.

Yeah not surprised they had an option I just don't think these guys did the full conversion. Bare metal showing where the rear seats use to be. Unless it was some sort of drag pack style option where even at the OE level they didn't bother finishing it with carpet.

[ESPCamaro]

What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission

Right but that only works with an LT1/LT4

[ESPCamaro]

<SNIP>

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

Interesting! I knew the 1st Gen Shelby had a rear seat delete option, but didn't know it was an option for the Fox body. Still, the rear seats weigh nothing and are in the best place for any weight anyway.

Yeah not surprised they had an option I just don't think these guys did the full conversion. Bare metal showing where the rear seats use to be. Unless it was some sort of drag pack style option where even at the OE level they didn't bother finishing it with carpet.

Cobra R is the UD/BD allowance

[landstuhltaylor]

What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission

Right but that only works with an LT1/LT4

There are ways

[ESPCamaro]

What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance

The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission

Right but that only works with an LT1/LT4

There are ways

Not without doing work to the trans that is illegal in ESP

[ESPCamaro]

Or maybe there is something else
Idk.

[SuperMacGuy]

You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.

[ESPCamaro]

You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.

Which would be blatant cheating

[CrashTestDummy]

You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.

Which would be blatant cheating

Yeah, unless it's a lump off a factory shelf with those ratios, you can't pick and choose what's inside it and stay in the letter of the rules. If there's no update/backdate transmission available like that, you can't do it. That's the way *SP rules are.

Or, welcome to C Prepared! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[landstuhltaylor]

You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.

Which would be blatant cheating

Yeah, unless it's a lump off a factory shelf with those ratios, you can't pick and choose what's inside it and stay in the letter of the rules. If there's no update/backdate transmission available like that, you can't do it. That's the way *SP rules are.

Or, welcome to C Prepared! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

I'm leaning towards a FAST 102 instead of tjhe trans swap. M29 is possiboe but most likely not with the small clucth and would require fabrication on top of that. The manifikd seems likr a better long term investment with the eventual LS2 build for CP. I think I have one more year of ESP before making the jumo.

[Smitty2919]

CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ESPCamaro]

CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I’m just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just don’t like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the “rules”
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. It’s not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO

[ESPCamaro]

Another big change:
Sounds like TONS of people use data acquisition and/or video nowadays.
I don’t remember seeing anyone use video in 05’. The “ChaseCam” has just come out but I never really saw them.

[SuperMacGuy]

Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".

[ESPCamaro]

Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".

It stinks because I have SO MUCH to do and buy and I definitely want ay least Solo Storm @ $200. I can deal with that just have to see how much the video side will cost

[ESPCamaro]

The other thing is I suspect it’s most useful for drivers who need the most improvement which will be me

[landstuhltaylor]

It has some value as a single driver car, it has much more value if there are two drivers in it.

[Mojave]

Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".

There have been have's and have not's in racing since the dawn of the automobile. $800 is less than one set of tires and a good daq will last for years and years.

If you want a spec class, go run SSC.

[ESPCamaro]

Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".

There have been have's and have not's in racing since the dawn of the automobile. $800 is less than one set of tires and a good daq will last for years and years.

If you want a spec class, go run SSC.

Unfortunately that’s going to be the case for forever.
If someone has enough money to justify 10k on a set of shocks they’ll spend it.

[00PewterSS]

CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I’m just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just don’t like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the “rules”
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. It’s not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO

I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?

[mikedamageinc]

CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I’m just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just don’t like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the “rules”
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. It’s not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO

I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?

I agree, I wouldn't want it to get too complicated since the reason it was started is for simple fun, but it would be nice to see a little more separation between the "middle aged" muscle and the younger fellas

[CrashTestDummy]

It has some value as a single driver car, it has much more value if there are two drivers in it.

I've found the learning curve to be pretty steep for most of those systems. I find simple video where you can see most of the track and driver inputs to be fairly-useful, but mostly after the fact. With the short time between runs at most regional events, you rarely have time to do the overlay of driver runs to compare, and since most of the 'lipstick' cameras, downloading the recorded videos to some device where you can review the run usually takes more time than the actual run itself. I guess the stuff could be useful 'semi-live' if you had a quick way to grab the memory card out of the camera and get it plugged into a laptop of tablet, but with everything else that usually happens between rounds, you really need a 'crew member' dedicated to just the datalogging stuff to get the time to get the data transferred and reviewed.

Still, we DO record, though, both data (we currently use the Petrel SoloStorm on a Galaxy Tab 4), and video (we have two Re-Play cameras, a 1080-Mini (our first RePlay camera) we use to record output from our A/F meter, and a PrimeX we use to record driver actions and the car run with the camera pointing out the windshield), but rarely view the output until we get home and have decompressed from the event. The last even video should be fun to watch, since I did ground-loop the car on my last run.

All-in-all, I probably have about $1000 in the current package, but have gone through a CamFX (worked fine until the controller quit booting) and a Canon digital video camera (didn't at all like the vibrations it was exposed to, and would frequently just quit working and shut itself off, even when recording to a memory card).

It seems the next step up in data logging is about 2X+ what we've currently spent. Still mulling that over, but hopefully we'd get something a bit more user-friendly.

[ESPCamaro]

CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I’m just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just don’t like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the “rules”
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. It’s not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO

I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?

When I autocrossed a lot I was a NWOR member. My local region was 35 minutes away and northwest Ohio region was 2+hours away.
This go around I’ll probably join up with the Fort Wayne region since we just moved to Fremont IN just south of Coldwater MI
As for where I’ll race....hell at first I’ll take anything I can get but then I’ll try and pick events that are likely to have the kinds of courses and surfaces I like.
I raced with all the regions or clubs in a 3hr radius at one time or another

[Hardrvin]

For basic data logging and review, look into cell phone setups. They’re honestly that good now. And you’re talking about a $20 app on hardware you already own.

Crashtestdummy is correct. Most systems take too long to pull the information and actually get anything useful. That within a given autocross day, you’d be hard pressed to digest anything for it. And it’s benefit increases greatly with a second driver to bounce off methods with. I use it for road course work and when you have tons of laps and get real time predictive lap time to tell some input for an output, that’s the height of its usefulness.

If you’re ready to take the big leap crashtestdummy, look at a Racelogic HD2. Switched to this system based on recommendations from a pro coach for a race team I manage. For drive comparisons, it’s fantastic. And it overlays the video and data as it records. Meaning I reach back, pull the SD card, and in 30 seconds I can pulling the video and dat up to review. It’s light years more user friendly than the Traqmate setup I have in my personal vehicle.