[pknowles]

Interesting read.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/e....asp?NewsID=188

[KeithO]

I read the report and scanned the appendices. While there might be some erroneous things in there I like the thinking that it will stimulate in a segment of our population. It reminds me of a conversation that I had at "high society" dinner party years ago when I went to things like that.

I overheard a guy preaching the wonders of this electric car he bought and how it had zero emissions. I shimmied over to the group he was talking to and I engaged him about the car first just to get him talking. I then redirected the conversation in an unexpected direction. It went something like this:

Me: So, you just plug in it when you pull it into your garage and it recharges?

Mr. Sophisticated: Yes. It takes overnight to fully charge and then it's good for an honest 50 miles. It's not much but it fulfills my needs.

Me: Interesting. ...and you say it has zero emissions, huh?

Mr. Sophisticated: Yes. Since it has an electric motor, there are no emissions at all. It doesn't even have a tailpipe to emit pollutants. This is definitely the future now. A zero emissions vehicle is a god send for our environment and I am proud to own one to do my part to reduce my impact on the world.

Me: Cool. Wait a minute - you have to plug this in to charge it up, right?

Mr. Sophisticated: Yes. Like I said overnight.

Me: So it's powered by electricity supplied by your electric company, right?

Mr. Sophisticated: Yes.

Me: Did you know that the majority of electrical power in this country is generated by coal-fired plants?

Mr. Sophisticated: Yes, I guess I knew this but what is your point?

Me: Well, you're telling us your driving a zero emissions car and you're right - the car emits zero emissions as the end user of the energy. However, what you really have is a coal-fired car and the pollutants are just emitted somewhere else. I am not sure that a coal-fired car containing rechargeable batteries with a disposal problem is really good for the environment.

The guy (and many of his friends) then seemed at first surprised then quickly turned angry towards me. Real information shattered their limited thinking into what was really going on with that car. While I am sure that I was the jerk in the conversation in their minds, I believe that they should be able to think a little more critically in the future. That was my intention.

I see this report along these same lines.

[StanIROCZ]

Great story!

Reminds me of my tree hugger (I'm not as PC as Keith) cousin that owns a Diesel VW. He thinks that he is doing a great thing for the enviroment because it gets 40 MPG or whatever, then I told him that diesels have more particulate emmissions and are actually worst. I really didn't know if that was true or not, but that is what I told him anyways. He didn't like that.

[z28tt]

Great story!

Reminds me of my tree hugger (I'm not as PC as Keith) cousin that owns a Diesel VW. He thinks that he is doing a great thing for the enviroment because it gets 40 MPG or whatever, then I told him that diesels have more particulate emmissions and are actually worst. I really didn't know if that was true or not, but that is what I told him anyways. He didn't like that.

I thought they all had particulate filters these days - the diesel version of cats? I know the Audi R10 diesel lemans car does, because they wanted to showcase the "Green" side of diesel racing, and didn't think big black sooty clouds would win the public over.

A.

[sickboy]

*Puts flame suit on*

I honestly don't think this argument has any merit at all. When Toyota claims 100k mile life expectancy for their Prius, they're obviously underestimating. They probably claim the same for their Corolla and Camry lines. Toyota's are known for their reliability, and many people drive these cars without major overhauls well over 200k or 250k miles. Try that with a Hummer. The 300k claimed lifetime of the Hummer's probably reflects their military heritage, where vehicles ago through extensive preventative maintenance programs and have major overhauls of engines and transmissions on a regular basis. An average consumer will not do this, and I'm pretty confident most civilian Hummers will be taking up space in a junkyard well shy of their 300k mile claimed lifetime. If you look at how long these modern (Toyota) cars SHOULD last, and their overall carbon footprint during their entire lifetime, you'll be able to appreciate how much extra carbon dioxide that Hummer is making, and thus damaging the environment. So now for a little math... while a Prius may *only* get 45 mpg in actual daily use, a Hummer is looking at more like 15 or less mpg. 250000miles/15mpg = 16667 gallons of gas used over its life as opposed to 250000/45 = 5556 gallons of gas used by the Prius. Sure manufacturing a Prius may produce a bit more emissions at whatever factory is producing it, but there are controls there to deal with it, and I'm sure its not nearly as harmful as burning an extra 11000 gallons of gas.

[Mojave]

*Puts flame suit on*

I honestly don't think this argument has any merit at all. When Toyota claims 100k mile life expectancy for their Prius, they're obviously underestimating. They probably claim the same for their Corolla and Camry lines. Toyota's are known for their reliability, and many people drive these cars without major overhauls well over 200k or 250k miles. Try that with a Hummer. The 300k claimed lifetime of the Hummer's probably reflects their military heritage, where vehicles ago through extensive preventative maintenance programs and have major overhauls of engines and transmissions on a regular basis. An average consumer will not do this, and I'm pretty confident most civilian Hummers will be taking up space in a junkyard well shy of their 300k mile claimed lifetime. If you look at how long these modern (Toyota) cars SHOULD last, and their overall carbon footprint during their entire lifetime, you'll be able to appreciate how much extra carbon dioxide that Hummer is making, and thus damaging the environment. So now for a little math... while a Prius may *only* get 45 mpg in actual daily use, a Hummer is looking at more like 15 or less mpg. 250000miles/15mpg = 16667 gallons of gas used over its life as opposed to 250000/45 = 5556 gallons of gas used by the Prius. Sure manufacturing a Prius may produce a bit more emissions at whatever factory is producing it, but there are controls there to deal with it, and I'm sure its not nearly as harmful as burning an extra 11000 gallons of gas.

A 6.0L and 4L80E will run as long as you do the maitence. That is to say nothing about how well the body/interior will last, but at the shop I work at, an 01 C2500HD with a 6.0L came in with zero oil pressure. None. It had 325K miles. We put a new oil pump in it, and it drove out under its own power.

While the Prius' gas engine may last forever, the batteries will not. Batteries have a finite number of charge/discharge cycles before they begin to loose capacity.