[Joe Silva]

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-12-fastrack.pdf

I guess the DSP bimmer proposal got shot down due to a larger restructure in SP. I seriously hope they leave ESP alone (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[BigEnos]

One car, that's exactly how many E30/IS300s are currently being competitively campaigned nationally. If there's even a chance that this car may outclass the current ESP cars then why are we, as a club, gonna do it? You do have to break eggs to make an omlette, but do you have to break *all* the eggs?

The WRX is a completely unrelated issue to this, and whether or not it is more competitive than the E30/IS300 would be is immaterial to whether the E30 or IS300, or both, should be moved to ESP.

[marka]

Howdy,

One car, that's exactly how many E30/IS300s are currently being competitively campaigned nationally. If there's even a chance that this car may outclass the current ESP cars then why are we, as a club, gonna do it? You do have to break eggs to make an omlette, but do you have to break *all* the eggs?

The WRX is a completely unrelated issue to this, and whether or not it is more competitive than the E30/IS300 would be is immaterial to whether the E30 or IS300, or both, should be moved to ESP.

The thing to me is that I just don't think an E30 or IS300 should be a problem for a good ESP car. I think they might have a chance, but are _way_ not overdogs.

The WRX isn't unrelated to this, since if the WRX is faster than the pony cars (and I think its got a better shot at this than the e30/is300 do) and our goal is to "leave ESP alone", then there's not an issue putting a car into esp that's slower than the WRX.

Mark

(who _really_ wants an SM-Heavy class... :-)

[BigEnos]

Howdy,

The WRX isn't unrelated to this, since if the WRX is faster than the pony cars (and I think its got a better shot at this than the e30/is300 do) and our goal is to "leave ESP alone", then there's not an issue putting a car into esp that's slower than the WRX.

Mark

(who _really_ wants an SM-Heavy class... :-)

There is a big difference here. The WRX has been in ESP for a long time, possibly since it came out. *And* there are not any currently being campaigned. I do think the newest iteration of the WRX could be the fastest thing is ESP, but that's just my own (and many others') reckoning. I'm not going to move a car that no one has setup yet because I *think* it might be really fast.

Fact is, by leaving the WRX there we are "leaving ESP alone". By adding a car(s) we are most definitely not leaving ESP alone.

Alex is an incredible driver in a very well setup car. If the E36 BMWs aren't moving, then why are we moving the E30/IS300s that have proven to be very competitive with the E36? If the E36 is moving, then why don't we just move the other two cars with it?

What exactly is it that the club is trying to accomplish? I've asked that question repeatedly, but I never get a candid answer. If ESP participation was low I could understand the SEB wanting to do something, but I see a healthy class with a clearly defined "type" of car that is popular and competitive. We have competitive cars on both coasts and spread around the center of the country so the interest is well distributed, too.

I laid back and took a wait-and-see approach with the last two attempts to redefine ESP (E36 BMW M3 and STiEvo). I won't anymore. I will fight all attempts to subjugate ponycars in ESP, either official or unofficial.

[marka]

Howdy,

There is a big difference here. The WRX has been in ESP for a long time, possibly since it came out. *And* there are not any currently being campaigned. I do think the newest iteration of the WRX could be the fastest thing is ESP, but that's just my own (and many others') reckoning. I'm not going to move a car that no one has setup yet because I *think* it might be really fast.

Fact is, by leaving the WRX there we are "leaving ESP alone". By adding a car(s) we are most definitely not leaving ESP alone.

Usually when people say they want to "leave a class alone" what they _really_ mean are that they don't want the class to change from what it is today. If someone builds a good WRX, I think it could well mean that alll the current ESP pony cars would be on the trailer. To me, that's not "leaving the class alone".

You'll note in my "this is how I think it should go", I actually moved those cars to BSP.

Alex is an incredible driver in a very well setup car. If the E36 BMWs aren't moving, then why are we moving the E30/IS300s that have proven to be very competitive with the E36? If the E36 is moving, then why don't we just move the other two cars with it?

Again, my ideas there would put the E36 in BSP. That's 'ok' because they can add a good bit of power if they're on the same line as the E36 M3. The E30 cars and the IS300 can't do that and personally I don't think they'd be dominant in ESP. Hence why I thought it would be smart to put them there.

I agree with you that if they'd be dominant in ESP, I don't think they should go there. However, we've had an excellent driver in both examples of those cars, setup well, and they haven't shown they'd be dominant in ESP. In the hunt maybe, but certainly not dominant.

What exactly is it that the club is trying to accomplish? I've asked that question repeatedly, but I never get a candid answer. If ESP participation was low I could understand the SEB wanting to do something, but I see a healthy class with a clearly defined "type" of car that is popular and competitive. We have competitive cars on both coasts and spread around the center of the country so the interest is well distributed, too.

Remember, these are just my ideas of how a restructuring could occur, and probably have nothing whatsoever to do with what the SPAC/SEB think should happen.

I laid back and took a wait-and-see approach with the last two attempts to redefine ESP (E36 BMW M3 and STiEvo). I won't anymore. I will fight all attempts to subjugate ponycars in ESP, either official or unofficial.

Dude, if you really think I'm out to "subjugate ponycars in ESP" then you haven't been paying attention for, like, _years_.

Simply put, the only reason that in my mind the E30 and IS300 would be ok in ESP is because they (still) wouldn't be the car to have for the class, but it happens to be the class they'd have the best shot in with DSP changing into something else.

Mark

[BigEnos]

Howdy,

Dude, if you really think I'm out to "subjugate ponycars in ESP" then you haven't been paying attention for, like, _years_.

Simply put, the only reason that in my mind the E30 and IS300 would be ok in ESP is because they (still) wouldn't be the car to have for the class, but it happens to be the class they'd have the best shot in with DSP changing into something else.

Mark

They aren't ponycars, they aren't lower tier AWD cars, they don't belong.

Do *I* think you are trying to? No. Will others when they hear of such a proposal? Maybe. So I fight it, intelligently I hope. I just don't want there to be any ambiguity in my stance.

Leave ESP alone.

WRT the WRX, I don't think anyone will pony up to build one. Lots of work/money and most people will just get an STi and mess with it instead. Jumping on a car that no one has built/proven and is firmly established in the class will only make me look like a numbskull Winch-ite and I'd lose credibility. I do realize that battles must be chosen to be won. Hopefully by the time someone builds a WRX I'll be driving an '09 Camaro in FS anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)