Need input on garage layout Options

[mitchntx]

I will definitely run gas to the garage, I plan on sticking a regular 90+ percent efficiency furnace in the corner

This is all I use and it works great for those long, cold Texas winter days ...


(IMG:http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/1727_lg.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

[vanwyk4257]

I will definitely run gas to the garage, I plan on sticking a regular 90+ percent efficiency furnace in the corner

This is all I use and it works great for those long, cold Texas winter days ...


(IMG:http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/1727_lg.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

Yeah, I'll bet it gets down to a brisk 40-50 degrees down there! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[rmackintosh]

I will definitely run gas to the garage, I plan on sticking a regular 90+ percent efficiency furnace in the corner

This is all I use and it works great for those long, cold Texas winter days ...


(IMG:http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/1727_lg.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

Yeah, I'll bet it gets down to a brisk 40-50 degrees down there! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

That's FREEZING! Glad I don't live in Texas! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[mitchntx]

Yeah, I'll bet it gets down to a brisk 40-50 degrees down there! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

It's nothing to burn 10-20 lbs of propane a year ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[00 SS]

I will be building a new shop one of these days as well. The county allows buildings to cover up to 10% of the property, so that give me a posible 6000 square feet for house and shop. The house foot print with garage is about 3500 square feet and I was hoping to build a 2000 square foot shop (40x50). I was planning on having a 12'x18' door and 8'x18' door plus a 3' man door. A minimum of 100a 220 electrical service, gas and water for a hose bib (or two). I'm hoping that will be a enough room, but who knows, I'm sure I'll find ways to fill it up and want more. I'm hoping 50" is enough to pull a truck and trailor in without unhooking. I might even have enough room to make the 12' tall door area a pass through with another 12' tall door on the back. If I end up with enough room to turn it around without driving over the leach field, I'll probably do it.

A storage loft over the 8' tall door area would also be a bonus.

I thought about in floor radiant heat, but what a mess if something ever broke.

The idea of running extra empty conduits is a really good one.

[marka]

Howdy,

24 x 30 is the size of my garage. It is also 2 stories.
Consider a loft to accomodate extra storage and work space for the smaller stuff.
I have a 9 foot ceiling and have been looking at taking out some of the second floor floor to make room for a hoist.
I have 2 huge work/fab benches with another 4 foot long workbench.
Run a gas line to the garage for heating. Or consider a woodburning stove.
There are now corn cob burners in our neck of the woods for a more eco-friendly heating source.
I am able to fit, and work on three vehicles comfortably.

Thanks Todd. I'm thinking I will go 24x32 right now. I have my wife's cousin who is a builder working on getting me a quote right now less concrete/flatwork to see what I will be looking at in terms of materials cost. I will probably have someone set the posts and from there I will just build the garage myself with my father. I will definitely run gas to the garage, I plan on sticking a regular 90+ percent efficiency furnace in the corner with an exterior fresh air intake for the burner so I don't have to worry about fumes or using solvents inside. I figure once the entire building is insulated a furnace like that should heat the place up nice and toasty pretty quick during the winter. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

Is 24' the depth or the width? If its the depth... Consider growing that to 30' or 32' as well. 24' sounds like a lot of room and you can make it work, but by the time you put a bench or other tools in front of the car that 24' is down to 21', and with even a smaller car like a camaro you're talking 16' nose to tail. That leaves you a whopping 2.5' in front and behind the car to work on either end, which speaking from experience isn't a lot.

In terms of heat, consider electric as well. I dunno whats going on where you live, but heating oil and natural gas are through the roof where we are (Youngstown area). Electric is easy to install, no flame, etc. It does mean you'll need 220vac to the shop, but IMHO you'd be a bit daft to not do that anyway. Way too much shop equipment wants 220vac... Off hand, it'd include any decent air compressor, welder, lift, and some machine tools & tire machines. If you're dedicated enough to want a shop, you're going to want some of those...

I dunno if anyone makes electric radiant floor heat, but that (to me) would be a neat way to go.

Speaking of the floor, it won't cost you all that much more to go with thicker than the standard 4" or whatever it is residential garage floor. I'd want at least 6", maybe 8", with high strength concrete & mesh. This is one of those things where its pretty cheap to overbuild it initially and really damned expensive if you need more later on.

I'd also have more natural light, as long as you don't have theft concerns. Decent windows on the outside can also make the building look nicer.

If you go with a single door, make the door wider than 16' if you plan on pulling two cars in side by side. 16' is pretty tight even on a residential garage, let alone something where you're going to need to work around each of the cars. 18' minimum here.

Mark

Oh yeah... On garage door height... Make the garage door as tall as you can, given your sidewall. Again, this is a huge PITA later on if you have something taller you want in the garage like a trailer, RV, really big tow vehicle, etc. If you plan on a lift, you also want to be able to put a vehicle up on the lift with the door up...

This post has been edited by marka: Mar 25 2008, 04:06 PM

[vanwyk4257]

24ft. is the depth. I could potentially go a bit deeper than 24' but I'm pretty restricted by my small backyard and all the offsets from the lot lines et al. I want to keep the overhead doors quite a way back from the house and also leave myself more then enough room to maneuver my trailer to park it next to the garage in the back yard. If I went much deeper than 24 feet that would get a bit more difficult.

I don't plan on putting any shelves in front of the area where the car(s) will be parked. All the shelves and workbenches will be off in the side of the building with the workshop area. My tool cabinet has casters so I can just roll that over to the car when I need to work on it.

I agree with your recommendation on the concrete and will be checking into that once I select a couple different contractors to get quotes from. I will definitely go thicker on the side of the garage that would eventually get the lift, if not the entire garage. It depends largely on my overall budget at this point.

I only have one car at this point and I'm not too concerned about having two cars in the garage at a time. Worst case scenario I can angle one slightly into the workshop area and still have plenty of room to work on stuff.

There are really a couple reasons I'm looking at gas heat, one I think forced air heat is far more efficient at heating up an area like a garage than electric heat would be, and I don't plan on keeping the temperature too high in the garage in the winter anyway, just warm enough to keep my hands from going numb! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[00 SS]

Gas heat is, as you state, is about 90% efficient at best. Electric heat is 100% efficient at point of use, we're not talking about generation efficiency here. If your heater has a blower on it, the distribution is the same. The only reason to use gas is if you gas is cheaper than your electricity for a comparable unit of energy. Gas has been significantly cheaper
historically, but that's rapidly changing.

[Wayno]

Mount your heater up near the ceiling so that it doesn't take up floor space.

[vanwyk4257]

Mount your heater up near the ceiling so that it doesn't take up floor space.

That's a pretty good idea. If I use an actual furnace I don't know if that is possible or not, I will have to look into it though.

[marka]

Howdy,

Common gas garage heater:
http://hot-dawg.modine.com/

Electric, similar style (less btu):
http://www.heater-home.com/product/G73.aspx

That's just a quick google search. You can find similar stuff on http://www.mcmaster.com, including (I seem to recall) a btu calculator to determine how much header you need. Biggest issue I can see with the electric versions is that you fairly quickly run into needing more than 220vac single phase if you're going to need a bunch of heat. Obviously you can get around that with two units, but you've still got a decent amp draw... Two of the heaters above is something like 40A all by themselves. Add a plasma cutter & compressor & lights and you might be sucking down 75A just in the garage. Not bad if you've got 100A service to the garage (on its own panel), but it might suck if you're stealing power from the rest of the house via a shared 100A panel...

Mark

[marka]

Howdy,

Heater sizing, from McMaster:

Heat Output Required— A heater should be large enough to replace the heat lost through the floor, walls, and ceiling of the space you are trying to heat. The amount of heat lost depends on how well an area is sealed and insulated. Follow these steps to estimate your heat requirement:
Step 1: Determine the surface area of your floor, walls, and ceiling in square feet:
(2 x length x width)+(2 x length x height)+(2 x width x height)
Step 2: Estimate your heat loss factor by choosing the description that best fits your building:
Very well sealed and insulated = .25
Well sealed, but not insulated = .75
Not well sealed or insulated = 1.25
Step 3: Decide how much you want the temperature to rise in ° F:
If you don't currently have interior heat this would be the difference between the outside temperature and your desired temperature. If adding to existing heat this would be the difference between your current temperature and your desired temperature.
Step 4: Multiply the results from steps 1-3 for your estimated Btu/hr. requirement. You may need to consider more than one heater to meet your total requirement.
Step 5: If you are sizing an electric heater by watts, multiply the result in Step 4 by .293.
For Example— Your 20-ft. x 20-ft. area has a 12-ft. ceiling and is well sealed and insulated. Your current heat source can only maintain 50° F, yet you want your area to be 65° F.
Step 1: Your surface area is: (2 x 20 x 20)+(2 x 20 x 12)+(2 x 20 x 12) = 1760 sq. ft.
Step 2: Your heat loss factor is .25 since your room is well sealed and insulated.
Step 3: You need a 15° F temperature rise (the difference between current 50° F temperature and desired 65° F temperature).
Step 4: Multiplying the results of steps 1-3 determines your heat required: 1760 x .25 x 15 = 6600 Btu/Hr.
Note: Your result in step 4 is the minimum requirement to reach your desired temperature. If this result is between two heater sizes, you should select the larger size.

I've yet to see a heat loss factor from anyone that spec'd "insulated, but not sealed as well as a house"... Anyone have any ideas there? My garage has an insulated door with the rubber sealing strips on the edges & the doors & windows are tight... Does that mean I can use .25 for heat loss?

Mark

[00 SS]

The formula is simple:

BTUH = U x A x delta T

U= 1/R of the wall. Use the area weighted average for the walls, windows, floor and roof. Windows are typically about U=0.6 for double pane clear non low e glass. Concrete is about R=0.5 per inch thickness. Just use the R value of the insulation for the walls and roof, the rest of the wall construction does add a bit to the overall value, but it's small.

A = surface area

Delta T = inside temperature - outside temperature

This will give the minimum required to maintain temperature. It's usually a good idea to double this number to size the heater to account for leakage and provide a decent recovery rate. The process above hints at recovery rate and what to do, but really doesn't explain it well.

Infiltration (cold air leaking in from outside) is very difficult to calculate and will vary greatly depending wind speed and direction.

This post has been edited by 00 SS: Mar 26 2008, 04:17 PM

[vanwyk4257]

Wow, somebody stayed at a Holiday Inn last night! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[00 SS]

Sorry, when you are an engineer, it's hard to turn it off sometimes. Anyway, I design HVAC for commercial buildings for a living so this stuff is second nature for me.

This post has been edited by 00 SS: Mar 26 2008, 06:57 PM

[vanwyk4257]

Many of my friends are engineers, so I've learned to recognize them from a mile away. I'm just a banker so I can't follow all that stuff! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_cheers.gif)

[rushman]

Do the 220v for sure. Also, if you are burying the wire, run at least 2 extra pvc conduit (cheap when you have the trench already) so you can run a cable line or ethernet line out there at some point.

[z28tt]

Ditto on the 220V. Your future air compressor, welder, plasma, and lift will require it. It's not any more expensive to run 220V vs 110, and gives you extra capacity down the road. I personally wouldn't install an extra meter, but our utility charges a "per meter" fee of $30/mo anyways. Might as well only pay that once for the house. That being said, install a 100A breaker in your main panel, and run the 4 gage (I forget exactly) wire to a sub panel in the garage. That minimizes your wiring runs, and copper is expensive these days.

Lots of outlets everwhere along walls, between doors, junction boxes in ceilings for lights & fans, etc.

Radiant floor heating would be a dream (a good friend is building his 40x40 shop right now in New Hampshire, and has it!). Drawback is if you're cheap and don't plan on keeping the garage heated at 50 full time through the cold MI winters. Radiant floor heating takes a long time to heat up the shop, so it's not as good for an on-demand system (but great for the baseline cooler temp, so then you just need to raise it another 10-15 degrees to be comfortable).

I personally would ratehr have less windows - less for neighbors to look into. Use transom windows above the garage doors, and lots of flourescent lighting inside. Generally, my doors are closed from Nov through March until it warms up. Less windows = more wall space for storage, and figure $500/window too.

Think of where the doors will face. It's nice not having the door face the street where anyone driving by sees what goodies you have.

Run a few 2" PVC condiuts in the foundation as wire/plumbing chases for the future - TV, warm water, etc... I wish I had a hose spigot with warm water to make washing the cars in winter easier.

Have a separate room for messy stuff like chop saws, cleaning parts, spray painting, grinding, etc.

Slop sink/bathroom would be nice. It's a pain to go back inside the house, take off the shoes, try not to get the doorknobs greasy, just because you've had 3 cups of coffee and need room for more! Minifridge is a must.

Epoxy the floors before you move in. If the foundation is poured, I think you can wait 30 days before painting. Put a vapor barrier under the concrete as well.

I like having the 2 garage doors instead of one, since it spills less heat if it needs to open in the winter. Have a normal 36"x80" person door as well, leading to the back yard, basement, or patio.

It's nice to have room to put the trailer in there if you're loading up for a race. I can *barely* fit it through my 9' wide doors if I take off the fenders, and even still the tongue is 2' past the garage door.

[00 Trans Ram]

Someone on here mentioned putting an A/C unit in a window. Don't waste time or money. I had an extra 10,000BTU unit laying around. I put it in the garage (2-car, attached to house) for those hot summer nights working on the car.

No matter what, it never got the garage below 85*. I'd get around 90* just by leaving the door open! The only way I could get it comfortable was to turn it on the night before and leave it on all day long. They are good at "keeping" things cool, but not cooling things off.

[rushman]

Someone on here mentioned putting an A/C unit in a window. Don't waste time or money. I had an extra 10,000BTU unit laying around. I put it in the garage (2-car, attached to house) for those hot summer nights working on the car.

No matter what, it never got the garage below 85*. I'd get around 90* just by leaving the door open! The only way I could get it comfortable was to turn it on the night before and leave it on all day long. They are good at "keeping" things cool, but not cooling things off.

Was your garage insulated? Sounds like it wasn't. That will make all the difference in the world..... although a 10k btu window unit probably isn't enough for a decent garage anyway.