Watts Link, No joke..... Options

[Applejack]

Good idea John, I was thinking about trying to get the DL1 in your car as well. Maybe the answer is only two weeks away. Hopefully this cold snap goes away.

[Sam Strano]

Jason--

John Crouse is bringing his car to a DC event this weekend, and I'm going to run it a bit. Frankly, I can't wait. The reviews I've gotten from John and others who have gotten it on have been damned good. Ranging form more predictable, to a feel more like an IRS car. I'm looking forward to it, and come Monday I'll probably have a lot to say if you want to give me a ring.

And I see John volunteered his car to you on the 19th too, so seeing hopefully be believing. I only wish my car was currently in working order so I could back to back them this weekend. But Mr. Burdette will be there and I know his car is basically my car, and what it's like. So as long as he lets me in it, I'll get the back to back data I need. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your data is pretty damned cool, and shows *EXACTLY* why I was/am so high on a Watts for the car and why I've wanted to do one for while. The way the PHB's mount on our cars and on the Mustangs means that when you turn right the RC goes up and the PHB actually pushes the body up, unloading the inside rear tire more than when you turn left and the RC drops and the body is pulled down. And FWIW, F-stock cars do this too, it's only worse on ESP cars given the more tire and grip, but I've see the same thing on friction circles both in my Camaro in FS and the Mustang now.

[patred]

Jason--

John Crouse is bringing his car to a DC event this weekend, and I'm going to run it a bit. Frankly, I can't wait. The reviews I've gotten from John and others who have gotten it on have been damned good. Ranging form more predictable, to a feel more like an IRS car. I'm looking forward to it, and come Monday I'll probably have a lot to say if you want to give me a ring.

And I see John volunteered his car to you on the 19th too, so seeing hopefully be believing. I only wish my car was currently in working order so I could back to back them this weekend. But Mr. Burdette will be there and I know his car is basically my car, and what it's like. So as long as he lets me in it, I'll get the back to back data I need. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Maybe you can mount your MaxQ (or whatever data logger you have) in both cars.

And post the information in that thread on thirdgen.org so someone can tell you how the Watts Link isn't working. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

Pat

[BigEnos]

I'm sure the DL1 will find its way into my car this weekend. Can't wait to try out the Watts Link, too. Both John and I have fresh Hoosiers so this should be a very good test.

[StanIROCZ]

That is that the car puts power down coming out of corners better out of left hand corners than while turning right.

Don't forget that the driver makes the left side of the car heavier also.. That's an LH turn advantage in-it-self.

I have the DIY Coleman / JonA Aluminum PHB. I'm not impressed with its stiffness (or lack there of) if I grab a hold of it in the center and pull down. I understand that that is different loading that what it sees in the car, but I think it is related in terms of resonance and buckling, which would be applicable in a RH turn. I eventually want to make a new PHB out of a 1.5 or 2” thin wall steel.

[Applejack]

Sam, if you can mount your Max Q in John's car this weekend that would be awesome. I'm really gald there's some interest here to put some data behind all of the comments. If someone's got something to post, let's see it!

Now all we need to do is figure out how to get an adjustable/shorter UCA for '09 and the 4th gen's might get taken to a new level. I suppose that's another thread though.

<edit for typing>

This post has been edited by Applejack: Oct 3 2008, 01:26 PM

[Applejack]

That is that the car puts power down coming out of corners better out of left hand corners than while turning right.

Don't forget that the driver makes the left side of the car heavier also.. That's an LH turn advantage in-it-self.

True, but the blue are on the graph I posted is HUGE. Comparing this effect to some data that I have from Marcus Merideth's ESP Mustang (PHB and higher roll stiffness) was interesting. The effect was still there in his car, but there was a much smaller empty area on the G-G. I'm thinking this is due to the stiffer setup not having as much of a change in distance between the CG and RC.

[marka]

Howdy,

That is that the car puts power down coming out of corners better out of left hand corners than while turning right.

Don't forget that the driver makes the left side of the car heavier also.. That's an LH turn advantage in-it-self.

True, but the blue are on the graph I posted is HUGE. Comparing this effect to some data that I have from Marcus Merideth's ESP Mustang (PHB and higher roll stiffness) was interesting. The effect was still there in his car, but there was a much smaller empty area on the G-G. I'm thinking this is due to the stiffer setup not having as much of a change in distance between the CG and RC.

What type of diff do each of you have? I'd have expected any live axle car to put down power better on an exit of a left hander vs. a right hander.

Interested to hear what Sam/Brian/others find with back to back comparisons!

Mark

[Applejack]

I have a T2R.

[Cr0usEEE]

I have the Auburn Pro Racer Diff after my T2R blew up at Nationals.

[shortbus]

I have a noisy T2R. Yes. It makes noise sometimes... like automatic gun fire aimed at the drivers butt. It has not done it in a while though. /shrug

[Sam Strano]

I don't know if I'll have time to use the MaxQData.... Being an Autocrossers Inc. event, the core group of us pretty much busy our butts from 7 AM on. I have to do the course, find time to walk it, get ready to drive, etc.

I have to tell you not to expect the data. If you want you'll get it on the 19th as you can put your DL1 in John's car (since he's planning on coming up). I am, and have been more interested in how the car drives than what some little lines say. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That annoys some, but I think I've proven overall what I do on setup works pretty well--and on a lot of different cars, not just F-bodies.

We all have our ways. I'm simply looking at a back to back to back test between John's car which is identical to mine but for the Watts, Brian's car (also 98% like mine and will be there), and to compare how fast vs. the Shelby since it's another known. I don't know if there will be a time difference... I'm looking for how the car reacts and feels. Even if it's not faster, easier to drive fast is still something I'm interested in. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Applejack]

Fair enough.

[Sam Strano]

True, but the blue are on the graph I posted is HUGE. Comparing this effect to some data that I have from Marcus Merideth's ESP Mustang (PHB and higher roll stiffness) was interesting. The effect was still there in his car, but there was a much smaller empty area on the G-G. I'm thinking this is due to the stiffer setup not having as much of a change in distance between the CG and RC.

Don't forget that while his car is much stiffer, the RC is also a lot lower too because the PHB is mounted so low and the car is also lighter.... it also has the 5 link (ok, really a 4-link and PHB) where he can adjust his instant center where we really can't.

So while it's a Solid axle RWD car, it's a bit different. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Though every time I've driven mine back to back they are pretty much the same speed. Proof you have two ways to skin a cat--ours is just more cost effective. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by Sam Strano: Oct 3 2008, 04:41 PM

[BigEnos]

True, but the blue are on the graph I posted is HUGE. Comparing this effect to some data that I have from Marcus Merideth's ESP Mustang (PHB and higher roll stiffness) was interesting. The effect was still there in his car, but there was a much smaller empty area on the G-G. I'm thinking this is due to the stiffer setup not having as much of a change in distance between the CG and RC.

Don't forget that while his car is much stiffer, the RC is also a lot lower too because the PHB is mounted so low and the car is also lighter.... it also has the 5 link (ok, really a 4-link and PHB) where he can adjust his instant center where we really can't.

So while it's a Solid axle RWD car, it's a bit different. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Though every time I've driven mine back to back they are pretty much the same speed. Proof you have two ways to skin a cat--ours is just more cost effective. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

FYI, I think Kevin will ban your @$$ for using analogies about cat dismemberment.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Sam Strano]

I like cats... Let me rephrase: You can do things differenly and end up with a competitive result. Mine just costs less (and you know, wins). (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sam Strano]

That is that the car puts power down coming out of corners better out of left hand corners than while turning right.

Don't forget that the driver makes the left side of the car heavier also.. That's an LH turn advantage in-it-self.

I have the DIY Coleman / JonA Aluminum PHB. I'm not impressed with its stiffness (or lack there of) if I grab a hold of it in the center and pull down. I understand that that is different loading that what it sees in the car, but I think it is related in terms of resonance and buckling, which would be applicable in a RH turn. I eventually want to make a new PHB out of a 1.5 or 2” thin wall steel.

F-bodies have quite good cross weights with driver most of the time anyway. I see this as a non-issue.

I agree on the PHB. It's why I WILL NOT use aluminum on the PHB. It's much too far of a run, and the aluminum is just not as strong as steel is. Even then a steel PHB has some of that flex too, which is just another thing that makes the Watts Link so cool. The arms, while aluminum are much, much shorter and therefore harder to bend.

[StanIROCZ]

F-bodies have quite good cross weights with driver most of the time anyway. I see this as a non-issue.

Cross weight is different than L or R side weight. No matter what you do with your spring seats you can't change the front/rear or right/left weights. You are only making the cross weights as close as possible.

Mark brings up a good point about the driveshaft torque as well.

[marka]

Howdy,

What's the scoop on weight of this setup vs. a panhard? Anyone got numbers yet?

Somewhat related... What do you folks think about legality in SP of removing the panhard bracket from the axle? 15.H.1 might justify it, but might not, too.

Maybe I should care more, about watts vs. panhard, but what I really like about this setup is that its an easy bolt in way to get good rear roll center adjustment...

Of course, I can modify my panhard mount for "free"... :-/

Mark

[marka]

Howdy,

More SP legality questions...

What rule allows you to remove the bolt in panhard mount brace that goes from the factory frame rail on the left to the panhard mount bracket on the right?

Mark