Everyone likes a good "Conspiracy Theory", Is big time racing wrecking for dollars? Options

[rmackintosh]

Randy, I'm not trying to argue with you. Just seeing if you could see things from a Nascar fans perspective.

Not trying to argue with you either Lonnie....just having one of those internet posting moments! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I just dislike NASCAR SO MUCH....not just restrictor plate racing....I get excited! I just feel.....jealous I guess....that this "canned/packaged" version of racing gets to have the spotlight in American racing...and I would prefer more "noble" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) forms of racing flourish so that AMERICAN drivers can go out and conquer the world as top drivers in VARIOUS forms of motorsports....F1, Rally, etc....instead of EVERYONE wondering where are the American drivers? Well.....they get SUCKED into big money, corporate sponsored NASCAR.....the black hole......I will stop my belly achin' now...

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I can understand NASCAR fans perspective....after all the stuff is prepackaged, marketed and distributed so that it is like candy to the "NASCAR Dads" out there.....just NEVER understood how people INTO motorsports get into NASCAR.....by the way....my crew cheif/dad....is the biggest NASCAR fan ever (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ....I just don't get it.....

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[ESPCamaro]

I do dislike how some of the up and coming american greats get/got sucked into Nascar.

I always wanted Robby Gordon and Tony Stewart to be american open wheel racers. But Open wheel just isn't "there" anymore. And I don't think the open wheel woes can, or should, be blamed on Nascar.

[rmackintosh]

But Open wheel just isn't "there" anymore. And I don't think the open wheel woes can, or should, be blamed on Nascar.

True....open wheel killed themselves.....they call it greed.

But on the other hand.....the last few years that open wheel was "still viable" it was like F1 in the U.S......NO AMERICAN DRIVERS in an American series! And THAT is because all American drivers went to NASCAR.....not that I blame them...that is where the sponsors were. But don't think that Tony and Robby went to NASCAR because "they love it" no matter how many times it is printed/video'd....they both stayed in a DYING open wheel longer than most because it was more what they wanted to do......

But this is like pro basketball and high schoolers going pro right away....I can't blame them....with the $$$ being waved in their face....but doesn't mean I have to agree with it/like it.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Mitch, sorry for getting hung up on the one wreck. In general I will certainly agree with you that big wrecks are something you won't hear them talk about but they know a lot of people watch just to see wrecks and they aren't going to be in too much of a hurry to eliminate the big wrecks.

Personally I think they could have removed the plates a long time ago by simply reducing the maximum engine displacement for those two tracks would cut HP but maintain throttle response...they act like it will take alien tech to slow the cars down....

[sgarnett]

I don't buy wrecking for exposure. It may help Nascar, but it doesn't help the team.

The hidden costs are a lot higher than $100K. Every car is a little different (it's simply not possible to build an exact clone), testing opportunites are VERY limited and expensive, and throwing away a sorted-out car hurts the teams chances at the NEXT race (or more).

OTOH, I have seen a driver force a caution when they needed one (and not just in NASCAR), and it certainly isn't unheard of to wreck your car to guard a teammate that's winning.

The scariest incident I've seen was actually in a motorcycle race on a road course. Rider A layed his bike down. Rider B, had to go offroad to avoid hitting Rider A, and damaged his bike. The inevitable caution would not have been enough to help him.

SO, Rider B ran onto the course and layed down near Rider A's wreck, blocking most of the track and forcing the race to be red flagged. By stopping the race he gained the opportunity to get his bike repaired in time for the restart.

I never heard what came of it, but I hope he was kicked out of the series.

[sgarnett]

BTW, I heard a great comment from MW about the wreck.

He was pretty pissed off at the rescue crew. He was trying to get them to just flip the car back over with a tow truck to get him out - compared to the ride he'd already been on, it would be a walk in the park.

Instead, they were determined to get him out by cutting through the cage with Sawzalls while the car was still upside down. Why is this bad? The car was already toast - the cage is scrap after a wreck like that. HOWEVER, it was only the cage (and the driver's neck) that was holding the car up, and they wanted to remove the cage (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Rob Hood]

I think NAPA and Mikey would stand to gain a LOT more by him winning his third 500 in four years, rather than wrecking.

IMO, almost no race promoter is a racer, and vice versa. A promoter is out to make a profit off of his show, whatever that show may be. And the France's are promoters. The one thing they listen to is money. Sure, Big Bill raced early on, but he recognized a way to make a buck, and began laying the foundations of NASCAR.

Did people get away with cheating or "improvising" in the early years? Yup. Was a "call" made to a certain racer (or racers, or manufacturer)? Probably. The small block Chevy (Gen 1) was basically grown and nurtured early on in NASCAR by Smokey Yunick and others. But I highly doubt that any serious management of the race itself is happening today or for that matter, five to 10 years back. There are too many variables, plus NASCAR has probably tripled its checks and balances in the inspection and rule processes that have now made the cars cookie-cutter, regardless of manufacturer. They (NASCAR) are too concerned about how to manage electronics (traction control of various forms is being used by numerous top teams, IMO).

I too would prefer that NASCAR have some more road courses on its schedule, as long as Bruton Smith doesn't own one of the tracks. The roots of NASCAR are steeped in the tradition of moonshine runners evading the "revenuers," and the modfications to those 'shine cars was a strong starting point for racing cars in the South to begin with.

CART vs IRL - Tony George AND Penske/other CART owners are responsible for the death of a good solid open-wheel road racing series in America. CART for jacking up the costs to extreme proportions, and George for saying one thing and doing another.

One more item - get rid of the restrictor plates, period. Run a short track body (more downforce/drag), cut the carburetor in half (850 to 425), and mandate 9:1 CR. That would remove enough power from the car that the speeds would be manageable. (I'm not against speed, but I don't like the "hornets nest" theory of slowing the cars down. At least this year's 500 had the pack broken up due to the different tire Goodyear brought).

Sorry for the long post...

[AllZWay]

First Note... I am a Nascar fan and actually fan of most all motorsports.

However.. Nascar is definitely NOT the most boring. F1 is by far and away the most boring.

How fun is it to watch 1 car start on the pole... Never pass anyone....never come close to anyone and win the race by a large distance?

F1 is total crap to watch....it is not even racing... it is just follow the leader. I applaud the technology involved and like the cars themselves, but it not even close to actual racing.

[Bald54]

Watching just about any form of racing is kind of boring to me. NASCAR literally will put me into a coma. I do like to watch Speed Vision when they have the racing karts on. This is about as pure a form of racing as there is. I'd much rather run a Sunday afternoon autocross or track event than waste my time watching a NASCAR race or any other race for that matter.

[mongoosez]

Adding my .02

Cope should stick to his "hair club" commercials, and get out of any racing.

I agree that any good road race guy, can't just walk in and dominate. Why has Robby (as much as I hate him) and Tony Stewart gone on to succeed? Natural ability and instinct to adjust to a bad handling car. Otherwise, the majority fade away....

The sponsorship battle has gotten WAY out of hand. Thus the entertainment twist....Listen to someone like Ward Burton last year "Well, the Caterpiller, Brawny wipes, Excedrin migraine, Dodge was off a little...."
Jeez, the guy has marbles in his mouth, yet, has to hash out all the sponsors before getting to pertinent info. A mess. Don't get me wrong, I program him into my scanner strictly to listen to his drawl as he curses other guys on the track. Entertaining....

We, "educated" racers look for more information than supplied. Most of the audience is not of our caliber. They wouldn't understand toe in any more than thumb-up-butt. They WANT the entertainment. Now with the main stream picking up and sponsorship getting pricey, they want to clean up their image. Thus Nextel is king. P.C. the racing and sponsorship. Remember all the hype with Shauna Robinson? Yet, she refused Playtex Tampon sponsors. Why?
Now, THAT would have been entertaining..."The Dodge rammed the Tampon car up the rear end of the Dupont chevy...."hehehe
entertainment

Whenever there is an altercation on or off the track, it is news....entertainment

The season ending rules- might as well be the XFL.....

The drivers are called "personalities" now. Jeff Gordon was on Ryan Seacrest's new show yesterday, what were his questions? "What is the biggest fashion no-no you have comitted...."
Please!

Yeah, Eddie George and his politics may have foiled a great racing series. But I have been to every IRL race at TMS and will continue. I have driven a best avg. of 211.7 mph there. 4.5 lateral g's in the turns. It Kicks your Ass. It is fun to watch. 6 cars in a pack, neck and neck... can't argue that. CART is going in the crapper, NASCAR is a soap opera, IRL is still Eddie's, and what are we left with?

US! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

So we do our own thing, thumb our noses at the "BIG Boys" and drive on!

[JonV]

To me NASCAR is just a good opportunity for an afternoon nap. Hold throttle on floor turn wheel left. OK so I'm simplifying, but that is just about all there is to it in my view. The announcers just go on and on about how tough this track is, and that track is. Hell, they are all circles. The show is entertainment, pure and simple. Forty three cars running side by side at 190mph will almost surely produce a spectacular wreck on any given weekend. I find that shameful, and disgusting.

I'm a big fan of CART, (to me Tony George and all things related to him are the anti-Christ) and I've notice that road racers that come to ovals, adapt very quickly and seemingly with ease whereas the oppostie is not the case. This suggests to me that more talent is required to turn left and right to accelerate and brake on turns with and without favourable camber.

F1 was a much better show last year, but I have to agree that I do like to see a field of cars and drivers that has at least 10 potential winners in it on any given race day.

IRL is just the NASCARizatiion of open wheel in NA. A sham and a mockery of racing. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

There now that I've got that off my chest. . . (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[AllZWay]

JonV a couple of examples to disprove your theory that Oval racing is easy.

Do you remember Alex Zanardi in Iroc racing? He couldn't drive his way out of wet paper bag. Castoneves isn't fairing much better.

Christian Fittipaldi & the Mears kid have both lost their rides in Nascar because they couldn't cut it.
Scott Pruett & Anthony Lazzaro couldn't make it either and there a couple of other road racers that had their legitimate chances and could cut it I just can't remember their names right now.


On the other side of the coin....

Tony Stewart had never road raced until he came to Nascar. He sat on the pole his first time and has now won a couple of Nascar road races with some big name road racers in the field. Then he and Earnhardt, Jr(another NON-road racer) almost won the 24 hours of Daytona. Dale Sr.... also never road raced except the 2 a year in Nascar, then was very good in the 24 hour race a few years back.

Robby Gordon is a great road racer and open wheel driver....but he sux as a stock car driver. John Andretti is another good road racer and open wheeler that has really struggled in stock cars on ovals.

The Dirt track drivers are the ones that are coming and dominating in Nascar and that is primarily because they learn throttle & car control while racing high HP cars on dirt.

I am not saying any one form is easier than others, just that they all take an enormous amount of skill....just maybe in varying forms.

BTW... I agree with Bill.... that IRL races are unbelievably awesome at Texas Motor Speedway. I swear you stop breathing from time to time as they get so fricking close to each and nose to tail several cars deep.

[rmackintosh]

JonV a couple of examples to disprove your theory that Oval racing is easy.

(RANT)

Its not that we think oval racing is easy....just that in comparison it is.....well EASY! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Don't think that a driver that is trained in proper car control in both the right AND left direction as well as managing !GASP! the shifter AND !DOUBLE GASP! the BRAKES for heavens sake...given AN EQUAL car and an equal footing/chance would not have an advantage.

IROC is a joke.....lets see the NASCAR boys run on a road course in the competition to make it fair....hell make 'em run a event or two on dirt while your at it....and a drag race or two to be fair! Try putting 2 NASCAR guys in equally preped cars with 14 ROAD RACE guys at Laguna Seca and lets see who can't drive out of a paper bag! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I have been to almost EVERY NASCAR race at Sears Point for 10 years straight.....I go for two reasons.....#1 I can get free tickets into luxury boxes with free food and BEER!....#2 I like to see the "lines" of some of "the best" professional racers in the country! Some can't hit the same line twice! Although I bet it IS hard in a car that weighs almost as much as my SUV!

NASCAR drivers are bred....they run short tracks since before they are old enough to get a drivers license, move up in oval type racing for 10 years and when they get good enough....they get a Busch ride....when they get better, they get a Cup ride.....road race guys are called up WITH NOT ONE MINUTE OF EXPERIENCE driving a OVERWEIGHT PIG of a car....by some MARGINAL team looking for a longshot or a one shot road race deal and people say "there.....you see.....it IS hard!" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(/RANT)

....man I HATE NASCAR....

can you tell....

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[Zimm]

IROC is a joke.....lets see the NASCAR boys run on a road course in the competition to make it fair....hell make 'em run a event or two on dirt while your at it....and a drag race or two to be fair! 

Say, Randy I think you're on to something. A new vision for IROC. One race at each of the following: a dirt short track, a paved short track, a super speedway, a proper road course, a street track, a rally stage (with water crossing), a drag strip, and maybe even an autocross or ice-race.

To keep costs down, they could use the same cars for each race - 4th gen f-bodies, of course (although the rally stage might be a bit of a struggle!). (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Then we'd see who the real racers are.

[JonV]

I don't mean to imply that there are no good racers in NASCAR. Clearly Jeff Gordon has the stuff to make it RR, from what I saw of him in that little promo stunt where he drove Juan Montoya's Williams last year. He showed some pretty decent speed, and glory hallelujah, he was endlessly enthusiastic/amazed about the car. I'd love to see him in F1. Tony Stewart had an incredible drive in the Daytona 24 hr this year. He was unfreaking believable driving that car on two wheels. There are others I'm sure. Also, I like to watch the NASCAR races when they are on the Road Courses. It makes for some interesting cut and thrust stuf happening from time to time. This is the shame of NASCAR. Potentially great racers do nothing but go round and round. Everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator.

But circles?

Endless circles?

Blah!

I think it is near criminal to put open wheel cars that close on ovals. It is spectacle, and I'd say cheap spectacle except that so many guys are getting so seriously hurt and killed doing it. I want to see good racing. I want to see cut and thrust. Dive bombs up the inside under braking. But I don't want to see mangled cars and mangled bodies. After that hideous Greg Moore wreck in '99, I lost all interest in open wheel cars on ovals. It was just an unspeakable horror to see that car go into the wall, and I knew as soon as he pancaked, that he was dead as a door knob. Not my scene. He looked too much like my oldest boy.

[rpoz-29]

FWIW, I can remember when the "Grand National" (pre Winston/Nextel/cup)
cars ran the old short track in Richmond in the early, to mid 70's. Some of those guys were towing on open trailers, behind a cube van. Despite the pit crew altercations, the racing itself was pretty clean. If you ever catch one of the old races on speed channel, watch it. I can only assume they had so much of their own money in the cars, they couldn't afford to tear them up. A lot of drivers had sponsorship from the local dealership. When the privateers quit having a chance, and when NASCAR wants "Soccer Moms" in the stands instead of enthusiasts, it was all I needed. Money is their God. And wait until the end of the season and the teams with no chance of a championship quit running to cut their own costs. I still prefer an amateur road race to any pro series.

[rmackintosh]

This is the shame of NASCAR. Potentially great racers do nothing but go round and round. Everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator.

E
X
A
C
T
L
Y
!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lateapex]

Tony Stewart had never road raced until he came to Nascar.  He sat on the pole his first time and has now won a couple of Nascar road races with some big name road racers in the field. 

Tony Stewart may have had more road race experience than you account. He won National championships in both the International Karting Federation and the World Karting Association. In America, much karting is on ovals, but both the “laydown” karts and the “sprint” type carts compete at some famous road courses. Currently, between the 2 sanctioning bodies, they are using: Portland International Raceway, Sears Point, Laguna Seca Raceway, Willow Springs Raceway, Seattle International Raceway, Carolina Motorsports Park, Mid Ohio Sports Car Course, VIRginia Intl Raceway, Summit Point Raceway, Putnam Park Road Course, Grattan Raceway, Road Atlanta, and other less well known tracks.

Most all European auto racers begin in karting, and that means on road courses. In Europe, most all auto and cycle racing is on road courses. The big new Eurospeedway oval track in Laustiz, Germany went bankrupt in 2002 and CART had to cancel the race that year. Europe’s ASCAR series, their version of NASCAR, is pretty much chuckled at by the racing-fan public. The opening event in England had 12,000 in attendance. The 24 hours of LeMans I attended had over 250,000 in attendance, and it was estimated that about 100,000 of them were British (they had to cross the channel to get there).

I am not saying that one form of racing is right or wrong, or that having a majority of fans means a series is more sophisticated. But … the closer a series comes to “spec racing” the less interested I become. I think that spec racing is appropriate for children learning to race. It keeps expenses down and gives you a better idea of who the more talented drivers are. As an adult watching adult drivers, I find it interesting to see creativity and invention in the development of the cars. I think there should be broad rules which everyone has to obey in a certain class, but still allow for much variety and ingenuity within those rules. I have enough problems with IMSA/ACO and their ever tightening rules. But NASCAR/GrandAm is a joke to me. It is approaching IROC. I’ve lost interest in the Speed World Challenge since I witnessed them penalizing the previous race winner with ballast. You spend money getting down to the minimum weight without compromising strength or safety, then they punish you for winning. I think it is un-sportsmanlike to “pre-engineer” the winner of a race. Let the best driver in the best car win. It forces the others to improve. It raises the level of competition. If “fans” will only watch a race when the top 10 finishers cross the finish line within 4 seconds of each other, then they aren’t autosports fans. Yea, throw a yellow 3 laps before the end to “bunch the cars up”. They are the kind of people who only watch a movie to see the accidents and explosions. There CAN be an intellectual component to watching car racing. Maybe NASCAR could control the cars remotely and we could have 6 abreast racing.

That said, I would watch NASCAR any weekend they ran on dirt, just like I still watch them when they run on road courses.

[AllZWay]

I would absolutely love to see IROC ran at several venues... ie... Dirt, ovals, drag strip, & road courses...and maybe even a rally. I have begged for that for years.

I really like the Speed World challenge since it the closest to good American road racing exept for the Runoffs... which I thoroughly enjoy, but I prefer to watch the Australian Supercars. It is fender on fender racing on road courses.

Ultimately, I prefer some type of control on cars....maybe not exactly spec, but at least some constraints. Otherwise it turns into F1... 200 million dollar budgets just to be competitive.

And while all racing always revolves around money.... it is nice to see racing that money isn't always King and actual DRIVING talents play a role in the outcome.

I guilty of watching any form of racing.... Australian Jet boats, lawnmowers, Florida swamp buggies.....etc. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[Rob Hood]

IROC should expand its series to six races - two superspeedway for the NASCAR boys, two road courses, and two flat 1 mile ovals for the IRL'ers. Dirt is cool, but doesn't have the media draw to make enough mainstream money. It would be neat to use the home track's most commonly used vehicle, but that would create a significant cost that the sanctioning body can't absorb right now. Ultimately, the race series should try to include an F1 driver, with perhaps one of the road course races held in conjunction with the US F1 race. Of course, scheduling conflicts abound, so that may end up as a pipe dream.