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> Senate and UAW just gave up a few minutes ago ..., tomorrow is gonna hurt ...
sgarnett
post Dec 12 2008, 03:48 AM
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The Senate, UAW, et al, just gave up (ie failed) on reaching a compromise a few minutes ago.

I don't know how GM will come out after bankruptcy (they just hired the bankruptcy lawyer), but the stock market futures are looking ugly tonight. It actually held up well through some dismal recent employment numbers, but I suspect tomorrow is gonna be ugly. Rebuilding my retirement is going to mean austerity and no new cars for a very long time, and I suspect that will be true for many others. That can't be good for any automaker.

I'll admit I wasn't convinced that bridge loans to March could solve the problems for GM, so I don't claim to know what the right answer was. Nevertheless, this is going to be a big kick in the teeth for the economy.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Dec 12 2008, 04:07 AM
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mitchntx
post Dec 12 2008, 03:50 AM
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ouch ...

goodbye recession ... hello depression.

This could last for years.
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T.O.Dillinder
post Dec 12 2008, 04:05 AM
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Did you hear that?..........
That is the economy going down the toilet.
My brother and his wife are going to lose everything.
My brother works for Lear Seating, and my sister-in-law was laid off from the GM Plant in Janesville 4 months ago.
They were depending on their Sub Pay to keep them afloat.
Time to start changing out the bills for ounces of gold and silver.
Obama better get rid of the free trade agreements and fast. Reinstate the High tariff, Buy American Reganomics.
It worked through RR second term, Bush Sr.'s term, and the first term of Slick Willy.
Then Willy had the great idea of free trade (NAFTA, and laying the ground work for China).
What was traded was jobs. No Jobs, No Money, No buy new car. When will the Politicians and Corporate Fat Cats get a clue.
I am glad I am in the medical sector now.
Sorry, I will get off my soap box now.
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sgarnett
post Dec 12 2008, 04:19 AM
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It just amazes me that "they" just don't seem to get it. I don't see how they can even consider adjourning tomorrow. Personally, I think they should all be locked in with plenty of coffee and with all the restrooms locked until some kind of agreement is reached.

OK, I'm not really amazed. I was just hoping they could somehow grasp the tremendous gravity of the situation and "man up".

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Dec 12 2008, 04:30 AM
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TSHACK
post Dec 12 2008, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (sgarnett @ Dec 11 2008, 08:19 PM) *
It just amazes me that "they" just don't seem to get it. I don't see how they can even consider adjourning tomorrow. Personally, I think they should all be locked in with plenty of coffee and with all the restrooms locked until some kind of agreement is reached.

OK, I'm not really amazed. I was just hoping they could somehow grasp the tremendous gravity of the situation and "man up".



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sgarnett
post Dec 12 2008, 04:18 PM
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OK, now the treasury is going to backstop backstop GM until congress reconvenes. I still think the coffee and locked restroom idea could work, especially if they have to hold out until ... January.
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StanIROCZ
post Dec 12 2008, 05:44 PM
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If your going to take the time to gripe about this please take the time to send a letter to the white house to tell Mr. Bush how important it is that the Big 3 get this bail out.

Here is the email address: comments@whitehouse.gov
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C3SS
post Dec 12 2008, 06:47 PM
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I agree it is important but would still like to see more concessions from the UAW. In the admittedly little reading I've done on this, that seems to be the hang-up.
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BigEnos
post Dec 12 2008, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (StanIROCZ @ Dec 12 2008, 12:44 PM) *
If your going to take the time to gripe about this please take the time to send a letter to the white house to tell Mr. Bush how important it is that the Big 3 get this bail out.

Here is the email address: comments@whitehouse.gov


Personally I'd like to see it called what it is, which is not a "bailout", but a loan. To me, a bailout is free money with oversight strings. This is money with strings attached that they actually have to pay back. All the Wall St. firms are getting "bailouts" which afaik they don't have to repay but the gov't gets to keep their eye on them for a while.

What really needs to happen is that the companies need to have the ability to "right-size" themselves. They all have too many plants, employees, and factories and I blame the UAW. I know it'll hurt a lot of people, but not as many as will be hurt when these companies fail outright.
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trackbird
post Dec 12 2008, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (C3SS @ Dec 12 2008, 01:47 PM) *
I agree it is important but would still like to see more concessions from the UAW. In the admittedly little reading I've done on this, that seems to be the hang-up.



I saw them say that they wanted the UAW to take a pay cut to put them in line with the non union import plants in the country. Many of which are located in areas with lower costs of living. Also, even if they are not, many families can't afford to take a 5-25% (I didn't see the exact number) pay cut. Of course going bankrupt and putting everyone out of work is an issue, but it doesn't do much good to keep your job and still lose the house and such due to not making enough money to continue paying your bills.

Don't take this to mean that I'm defending people overspending. But if you have a house and a couple kids (and income that's quite predictable since it's in the contract), your budget is probably pretty well stretched on the current salary. If you knew you were getting a pay cut, you might have kept a smaller car payment (or other bill) instead of buying whatever you may be driving currently. But if you're living (barely) within your means, a large paycut is almost as bad as losing your job. And it's not like you can just sell the house and buy something smaller right now, or sell/trade the car. The market sucks all the way around and you're probably going to be stuck with your current car/house/bills for a while.

And I've heard some mention of a few government officials who are wanting to "bust up" the unions. So, I guess it's a big sticking point.

Of course I'm just thinking out loud. Others may not agree.
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C3SS
post Dec 12 2008, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (trackbird @ Dec 12 2008, 01:26 PM) *
But if you have a house and a couple kids (and income that's quite predictable since it's in the contract), your budget is probably pretty well stretched on the current salary. If you knew you were getting a pay cut, you might have kept a smaller car payment (or other bill) instead of buying whatever you may be driving currently. But if you're living (barely) within your means, a large paycut is almost as bad as losing your job. And it's not like you can just sell the house and buy something smaller right now, or sell/trade the car.


At this point it seems the choices are change the contract (what do they think bankruptcy is going to accomplish?) or lose it all, so I'd think that the former would be preferable. The status quo is what got them into this situation in the first place, and ignoring the problem will not fix it, especially when you are saddling your company with labor costs 30% higher than your competitors. Per the AP:

QUOTE
Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

The UAW has not been able to organize workers at a Toyota plant in this country; it does represent workers at one joint GM-Toyota plant in Fremont, Calif.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...aw_VYgD950S0A84
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rmackintosh
post Dec 12 2008, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (mitchntx @ Dec 11 2008, 10:50 PM) *
ouch ...

goodbye recession ... hello depression.

This WILL last for years.



Fixed that for ya! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)
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trackbird
post Dec 12 2008, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (C3SS @ Dec 12 2008, 02:55 PM) *
QUOTE (trackbird @ Dec 12 2008, 01:26 PM) *
But if you have a house and a couple kids (and income that's quite predictable since it's in the contract), your budget is probably pretty well stretched on the current salary. If you knew you were getting a pay cut, you might have kept a smaller car payment (or other bill) instead of buying whatever you may be driving currently. But if you're living (barely) within your means, a large paycut is almost as bad as losing your job. And it's not like you can just sell the house and buy something smaller right now, or sell/trade the car.


At this point it seems the choices are change the contract (what do they think bankruptcy is going to accomplish?) or lose it all, so I'd think that the former would be preferable. The status quo is what got them into this situation in the first place, and ignoring the problem will not fix it, especially when you are saddling your company with labor costs 30% higher than your competitors. Per the AP:

QUOTE
Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

The UAW has not been able to organize workers at a Toyota plant in this country; it does represent workers at one joint GM-Toyota plant in Fremont, Calif.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...aw_VYgD950S0A84



I started to delete that post, but you beat me.

I'm seeing some cases of UAW guys taking home $150k. Ok, that's a bit extreme. But take someone in an "average" $30 an hour position and cut them to $22 or so, and they are going to lose the house in many cases. I wasn't looking at it from the perspective of 80 hour a week/$150k a year guys. Just an average 40 hour job and raising a family on it.

I really think the UAW assumes that GM will "pull it off" and they aren't going to go down until the very end. Once the ship really sinks, they'll probably agree to some changes for the last few weeks. But I don't think they are going to just roll over. It's ingrained in you that "the company is always lying", so I think that's the same issue here.

It's just a game of poker, though a very expensive one.


QUOTE (rmackintosh @ Dec 12 2008, 03:19 PM) *
QUOTE (mitchntx @ Dec 11 2008, 10:50 PM) *
ouch ...

goodbye recession ... hello depression.

This WILL last for years.



Fixed that for ya! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)



Guess I need to go reduce the price on the Camaro...
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FBody383
post Dec 12 2008, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (StanIROCZ @ Dec 12 2008, 11:44 AM) *
If your going to take the time to gripe about this please take the time to send a letter to the white house to tell Mr. Bush how important it is that the Big 3 get this bail out.

Here is the email address: comments@whitehouse.gov

I agree that you should contact your Congressmen and the President regarding your feelings on the issue.

I am unapologetically in the camp of bankruptcy as a workout of the existing issues.

Would you loan money to a company that appears to be mismanaged, has significant competition with arguably better engineering, product lines, cost structure, etc.?

What saved Chrysler when they got their loan was the K car and the minivan. I choose to believe that there is the second coming of Iacocca somewhere in the automotive/business world. I'm certain that person does not currently work for the U.S. government.


I feel for the retirees who put in a career and left the company with a mutual economic bargain.
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pknowles
post Dec 12 2008, 09:13 PM
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I'm surprised the GM investors aren't fed up and file Chapter 7. Between heavy government regulations and extortion like behavior by the UAW, I can't believe they didn't liquidate and run years ago.
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ESPCamaro
post Dec 12 2008, 09:35 PM
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A labor union would have saved my job. I had the 3rd highest seniority (sp) and got cut to save costs.
I have family in the Teamsters union (geesh).
I understand what/why the labor unions were created.

But with sensible workers rights regulations and a decent economy, I just don't see any use for the unions. The ones that are strong are hurting the companies in which they are in place. The weak ones only take the workers money and do nothing for them.....

Part of this money should be aimed at buying out union contracts and/or eliminating them.....


I'd take a non union job at a GM plant for less than what they make and with fewer benefits. Offer me a 401k keep the pension and call me a happy M/F. And you better beleive I wouldn't be the only one........


Another thing I hate to bring up since I've been labeled racist, biggot etc (if you know me you know that is idiotic but whatever).......In industrial jobs around me there are still tons of illegal immigrants. And tons of U.S citizen workers out of a job. Time to actually do something about this problem now too.
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cccbock
post Dec 12 2008, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (FBody383 @ Dec 12 2008, 04:10 PM) *
QUOTE (StanIROCZ @ Dec 12 2008, 11:44 AM) *
If your going to take the time to gripe about this please take the time to send a letter to the white house to tell Mr. Bush how important it is that the Big 3 get this bail out.

Here is the email address: comments@whitehouse.gov

I agree that you should contact your Congressmen and the President regarding your feelings on the issue.

I am unapologetically in the camp of bankruptcy as a workout of the existing issues.

Would you loan money to a company that appears to be mismanaged, has significant competition with arguably better engineering, product lines, cost structure, etc.?

I feel for the retirees who put in a career and left the company with a mutual economic bargain.


This seems to be an excellent exchange with no sniping or flaming...which is great.

I pretty much ditto the above. I have worked for all types of companies (well run and not), and government as well. My grandfather ran a non-union tool and die shop in South Bend in the 60's and the Union came in and ran him out of business within 5 years. The workers didnt even get a chance to work for less pay, they just just lost their job completely.

We have to remember also that the car companies are trying to deal with totally unprecedented economic problems in addition to their other better known problems. I own a real estate appraisal company, and I don't care how you manage it.....if your revenue goes to 20% of what it was before (practically overnight), and you have employees to pay...and no credit....there is gonna be a real big problem real soon....even if the executives work for nothing.

To survive, the Amercian auto industry needs to be restructured period. Just like the airlines are having to do. The airlines have had to use bankruptcy, and im afraid the auto companies will as well. Anything the government does is a only stop gap.

That and 4 bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Cream extra.

Bock
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nape
post Dec 13 2008, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (pknowles @ Dec 12 2008, 03:13 PM) *
I'm surprised the GM investors aren't fed up and file Chapter 7. Between heavy government regulations and extortion like behavior by the UAW, I can't believe they didn't liquidate and run years ago.


Remember this within the next 30 years when Toyota finally has a lot of workers who are old enough to start collecting a pension. Are you going to be telling them to do the same thing because... the vicious employees negotiated too much for retirement benefits? They just admitted that their labor costs about the same, the majority of the difference is the amount of people collecting.

QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Dec 12 2008, 03:35 PM) *
A labor union would have saved my job. I had the 3rd highest seniority (sp) and got cut to save costs.
I have family in the Teamsters union (geesh).
I understand what/why the labor unions were created.

But with sensible workers rights regulations and a decent economy, I just don't see any use for the unions. The ones that are strong are hurting the companies in which they are in place. The weak ones only take the workers money and do nothing for them.....

Part of this money should be aimed at buying out union contracts and/or eliminating them.....

I'd take a non union job at a GM plant for less than what they make and with fewer benefits. Offer me a 401k keep the pension and call me a happy M/F. And you better beleive I wouldn't be the only one........

Another thing I hate to bring up since I've been labeled racist, biggot etc (if you know me you know that is idiotic but whatever).......In industrial jobs around me there are still tons of illegal immigrants. And tons of U.S citizen workers out of a job. Time to actually do something about this problem now too.


The use for unions is strength in numbers and this time it's working in reverse. Too many people drawing pensions is increasing the cost per vehicle too much, but that could happen to any manufacturer with an aging work force.

In tough times, it's interesting to see what people will do to undercut each other. Who cares if you'd take a job for less then what they make with fewer benefits? I'm sure a lot of people would, but you must've thought you had a better deal going before the economy went into the dumper or you'd already be working there.

We're seeing that in the trades as well. People who think they should be white collar but decided to try a trade because the job market sucks. I wish they'd keep their white collar, they come out, don't want to work hard, don't want to get dirty, don't want to go home sore. Be careful what you wish for.

Trackbird: You're exactly right about the money and that's why it pisses me off when people bring it up. So what if a UAW represented employee makes $150k/year? He had to work a shitload of hours to do it.

I'm an IBEW Electrician and a lot of people complain about how much we cost, that we're lazy, make too much money. Yeah, I know guys hitting the $150k/year mark this year, but they've been on the road 8-10 months this year working 6-7 days a week (58-96hrs/wk).

As far as non-union not necessarily being better, we saw a good example of it on the job I'm working at right now. We didn't get the bid to install 4 transformers, a non-union shop did. It takes us 5 guys for 3 days to dress out 1 transformer. The rat shop took 8 guys 10 days to dress out each transformer. But, they can make it happen because they pay their guys 1/4 to 1/2 of what we make. You figure out which one is right or better.
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T.O.Dillinder
post Dec 13 2008, 04:03 AM
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My brother is making $ 17.50 per hour ($ 36,400 gross per year)at Lear Seating
His wife was making $ 22.76 per hour ($ 47,340.80 gross per year) working on the assembly line at GM on 2nd shift.
Compare that to your yearly wage.
The 150K hourly workers are in the Skilled Trades (Plant and Machinery Maintanence)with a wage of $35 p/hr., that are working Saturdays and Sundays and are making that wage double and triple that on those weekend days.
The Assembly workers at the Chrysler plant in Belvedere, IL are making over $ 26.00 per hour now.
Financial Institution and Corporate Heads need to quit taking the 7 to 9 figure Bonuses. How can anyone justify that kind of bonus when their company is losing money.
In 1963 my father started at the Janesville plant making $ 3.63 per hour. after his proby period he bought a 1963 Corvette.
I do not recall the sticker price. I think they were around $ 6,500.00 back then.
Anyways, my point is look at what my bro makes and the cost of a new Corvette.
The cost of living has risen at a higher percentage rate than people's salaries, it doesn't matter what your profession is.
If we could figure what the CEO of GM was making in 1963 compared to today, we would all be shocked at how the gap between the salary of a Top Person of a Corporation and the salary of "low guy" Joe has become greater by what some would consider extreme.
If I remember correctly from one of my business management classes from long ago, the CEO made approximately 300 times more than the lowest paid worker in the same company.
Today, using the estimate $ 130 million dollar salary for a CEO (and this is low, I have seen upwards of $ 300,000,000 with all options considered), and my sister-in-law's wage. The CEO makes 2,746.04 times more than my brother's wife.
So don't start hating on Union workers. You can hate on the Union Organizations Heads all you want.
Times have changed since my Grandfather was an original "Sit Downer" at the Janesville GM Plant.
The Unions pushed for what all of us share now days. Paid Vacations, 40 Hour work week, and safety improvements, and for hourly personnel, job security. But like any big organization there is politics and greed ot the top that pollutes the original cause and mode of operations of that organization.
If someone is not working, how are they going to buy your product to keep you employed?
If you price something out of the average person's range, how are you going to sell your product to keep you employed?
Sorry for the soap box, but to lay blame on the blue collar workers of companies is just plain stupid.
Teddy Roosevelt bailed out banks in the 1920's, and what happened?
The exact same thing that is happening now. Funds being use improperly by the Corporate Leaders.
What was the outcome?
The Great Depression.
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ESPCamaro
post Dec 13 2008, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (T.O.Dillinder @ Dec 12 2008, 11:03 PM) *
My brother is making $ 17.50 per hour ($ 36,400 gross per year)at Lear Seating
His wife was making $ 22.76 per hour ($ 47,340.80 gross per year) working on the assembly line at GM on 2nd shift.
Compare that to your yearly wage.
The 150K hourly workers are in the Skilled Trades (Plant and Machinery Maintanence)with a wage of $35 p/hr., that are working Saturdays and Sundays and are making that wage double and triple that on those weekend days.
The Assembly workers at the Chrysler plant in Belvedere, IL are making over $ 26.00 per hour now.
Financial Institution and Corporate Heads need to quit taking the 7 to 9 figure Bonuses. How can anyone justify that kind of bonus when their company is losing money.
In 1963 my father started at the Janesville plant making $ 3.63 per hour. after his proby period he bought a 1963 Corvette.
I do not recall the sticker price. I think they were around $ 6,500.00 back then.
Anyways, my point is look at what my bro makes and the cost of a new Corvette.
The cost of living has risen at a higher percentage rate than people's salaries, it doesn't matter what your profession is.
If we could figure what the CEO of GM was making in 1963 compared to today, we would all be shocked at how the gap between the salary of a Top Person of a Corporation and the salary of "low guy" Joe has become greater by what some would consider extreme.
If I remember correctly from one of my business management classes from long ago, the CEO made approximately 300 times more than the lowest paid worker in the same company.
Today, using the estimate $ 130 million dollar salary for a CEO (and this is low, I have seen upwards of $ 300,000,000 with all options considered), and my sister-in-law's wage. The CEO makes 2,746.04 times more than my brother's wife.
So don't start hating on Union workers. You can hate on the Union Organizations Heads all you want.
Times have changed since my Grandfather was an original "Sit Downer" at the Janesville GM Plant.
The Unions pushed for what all of us share now days. Paid Vacations, 40 Hour work week, and safety improvements, and for hourly personnel, job security. But like any big organization there is politics and greed ot the top that pollutes the original cause and mode of operations of that organization.
If someone is not working, how are they going to buy your product to keep you employed?
If you price something out of the average person's range, how are you going to sell your product to keep you employed?
Sorry for the soap box, but to lay blame on the blue collar workers of companies is just plain stupid.
Teddy Roosevelt bailed out banks in the 1920's, and what happened?
The exact same thing that is happening now. Funds being use improperly by the Corporate Leaders.
What was the outcome?
The Great Depression.



I wasn't laying blame on the blue collar worker........GM has had a long history of paying out big bonuses to white collar position holders, and/or refusing to cut white collars....As I understand it.

I'm simply pointing out that if it costs company X 1 and 3/4 to make something as company Y, company X is at a disadvantage........


I do find it interesting that saving a million jobs comes with such reservation for law makers, yet they just rushed right into giving money away to AIG etc.


Again I'm not entirely against unions. They would have protected my job. Pay was similar or better than what you quoted, but guess what. I'm out of a job. Union workers aren't (yet). And I put more than just time in, but time giving-----yeah I'll just not get into it.

This post has been edited by ESPCamaro: Dec 13 2008, 04:50 AM
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