So f'n douche bag at work got a '07 Subaru Impreza WRX Wagon, and now thinks he's the holy grail of motoring. He says AWD cars (like his WRX, which ofcourse is what god designed himself and put on the dirt road) isn't supposed to be driven on anything else but rallies (just like Ferrari's as supposed to be on the track and not on the road) and cannot be setup for the track and people need to stay off the gas to drive it around an asphalt track and that RWD is where it's at for anything performance oriented 'cos you can bring the ass end around at will. I'm not disagreeing with the RWD part (although I've noticed our f-body's like to understeer) but of course I've never driven an AWD car around a track but from what I've read, heard and seen, AWD's push a lot and have quite a bit of understeer and need more of a nose down attitude to get the handling right and then can be pretty competitive on the track. What say you? If I'm wrong, I'm gonna shut up and cry in a corner (ofcourse, having learned something ... but I ain't telling him, I'll just say I got sand in my eyes .. lol)

so ... does a properly setup AWD like a WRX match, supersede a prepped RWD or will they forever be lagging behind 'cos they belong on the dirt road?

This post has been edited by Mean Green Z28: Dec 27 2007, 05:10 PM

According to the RWD guys in BSP, they can't touch the Evos or the STis that run there..... so.... <shrug>

I think the WRX/STI's tend to understeer quite a bit with the stock setup. With a bit of tuning on the suspension though I've seen some on the track that are very quick. The Evo's tend to have better handling with stock suspension from what I've seen.

As with most things, it all depends on the car, its setup and the driver. I can disprove almost every statement above:

RWD are better than AWD at autox and RR - Try telling that to a Street Prepared Camaro that is competing against an SP Evo or STi. The "rally" cars will eat their lunch most times.

AWD cars are just for rallying - When was the last time you saw a Lamborghini Murcielago (which is AWD) on a rally course. (as a follow-up question, how much would you pay to drive one on a rally course!) Heck, even the Audis in the Speed WC series are AWD.

I own a Mazdaspeed 6 which is AWD. It's a bit larger and heaver than the WRX/EVO cars, but it's a respectable performer. If the suspension allowed for some additional negative camber (or any adjustment at all), I think it would go from "decent" to "very good" in the handling department. On top of that, you can do things in an AWD car that aren't prudent in a RWD car of the same hp. I can run wide open in first gear in my car in the rain and it will barely spin a wheel (274 hp/280 ft lbs). Where my Camaro's have required care in the rain, the Mazdaspeed really doesn't require any talent at all to operate. Just don't point it at anything you don't want to hit and it will pretty much do the rest. And, no, you don't have to be off the gas in corners. Actually, you can often accelerate better since you will not just overpower two tires in a corner.

Your friend is a bit misguided about AWD. Sorry.

from what I've seen in auto-x and road racing, AWD only has the advantage on slow speed courses or slow corners because you can go WOT much sooner and put the power down. Ovbiously this is great for Auto-x. Once you are up to enough speed that a 2wd car can hook, AWD is nothing but a power drain. AWD has even less of an advantage at the drag strip. Tire and suspension technology has come far enough that a 2wd vehicle can hook just as well with the right equipment. Once you're rollin' AWD does nothign but hurt your trap speed.

That being said, on most street tires, or in the rain and snow, AWD rules.

Douchebag +1

While the AWD cars can be a bit heavier and tire-limited WRT many of their competitors. Depending on class, however, they can be quite competitive. They are getting lighter, due to the use of light-weight materials and tire width limitations isn't that much of a limitation when your driving another pair of tires. They are tough to beat when it rains.

The biggest problem I see with them is that the individual parts are a bit more stressed, so breakage of expensive parts can be an issue. Many roadracers I talk to call Evos 'AWD timebombs' and the Scoobie's center diff and tranny are known to be delicate (although they are getting better). Probably 20% of the Scoobie drivers in the Houston Region have replacement trannys in their WRXs, some multiple times. One driver I know is three-for-three, starting with a WRX, and now on his second STi, putting transmissions in the things. The WRX took two before being traded.

I have ridden in and driven stock-class STi's, and can tell you that with the proper driver, they can be made to power understeer, power oversteer, brake understeer, and brake oversteer. It depends on how you handle the car.

Actually the Lambo would not be much fun on a rally stage (unless you're talking a tarmac rally such as Corsica, or Monte Carlo with no snow/ice). There is just NO ground clearance on those things for rough gravel stages, and they are just a little too wide/bulky/massive to handle some of the rediculously tight corners on some of the special stages (tarmac OR gravel). Think autocross course designed for new Loti or Miatas tight. A current WRC car with the inlet restrictors removed, OR an old evolution Group B car, now THAT would be worth a king's ransome to drive on a special stage!

Thanks guys for clearing this up, I knew I had the right info and the douche bag shall keep thinking his douchebaggery is correct ... Now I don't have to cry in a corner after all.

That was half my point. It'd be fun as hell to drive "someone else's" Lambo through mud, gravel, and dirt in a rally. Sure, you may get stuck halfway through, but you'd have a story that I'd wager not one other person on the planet can truthfully tell.

FYI, I have seen a 4x4 C5 Corvette. The thing was at least 2.5 feet off the ground and had huge mud tires on it. I'm sure it was just body panels bolted to a truck, but it still looked funny as heck!

AWD cars are easier to drive at the limit than RWD cars, and with the level of grip decreasing (dirt ... rain ... snow) they will have more of an advantage. But either platform can be tweaked to go fast on paved surfaces.

For bench racing and talking smack around the shop, it just depends on the level of driver and what's been done to the car. For example, a number of us here could drive an F-Body on dirt and make your co-worker look silly in his AWD car. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pat

Yup - these cars make surprisingly good rally cars. Never did "formal" rally events, but I played plenty of "follow the leader" through farms outside of Austin back in the 90s.

I own a 16 year old Sierra Cossie AWD with Ferguson diferentials. This car and my limited driving skills is faster than my camaro on the slaloms in the dry and when its wet it just plain dominates all the competion. When raced against other AWD cars like the WRX and EVO and R34 it takes their lunch. This car with its simplicity in design is just amazing.

You guys get all the really good cars across the pond, I wish more of them made it over here. If Ford and GM et al sold some of their Euro models over here stateside they would be selling a lot more cars. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

I call the AWD cars "cheaters" at the track as they do seem to have an advantage over RWD cars. I would agree they are easier to drive faster than RWD cars - this is a well known bite in the ass though as I have seen plenty of wadded up EVOs. two on one day!

Back in the late 80's, early 90's Audi had a couple of AWD cars running in Trans Am. They were so fast SCCA made them add weight to slow them down. That was with a 5 cylinder engine.

They're easier to drive but they also don't give inexperienced drivers enough opportunities of what to do when all that grip suddenly goes away. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Pat

I was fortunate enough to get to race in a class this year (NASA's PTC) that consisted of me (Firebird), an Audi A4 and a Mustang. The three of us became friendly during the course of the weekend. We compared notes and both the Audi and I were prepared very close to the limit of the rules for the class. The Mustang was lessor prepared. The made the comparison between my Firebird and the A4 interesting. Here are the lap-by-lap results:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=210503

(Edit: I was car #30 and the Audi was car #11)

In the May 19th race, the Audi out-qualified me and I thought I was toast after the practice and qualifying. However, if you look at the lap times in the race, I was about a second a lap faster. Admittedly, this is MY track but I think the cars can be prepared to be competitive with each other and it will come down to driver and experience.

He was faster in the corners and I just KILLED him on the straights with a stock LT1. It was actually alot of fun.

Just a data point.

This post has been edited by KeithO: Dec 28 2007, 03:06 PM

They really aren't easy to drive. Stock-wise, getting the most out of a WRX or an STi is just as hard as getting the most out of an F-body. I do believe it was already mentioned that they are pushy pigs in stock form.

In non-stock trim, the "ease" of driving is directly related to the setup. The only car that I've driven that was more of a challenge than Joel Fehrman's STi was a prepared-class TVR Vixen (and it was prepped to the limit).

I think the perception that they are easier to drive is what causes the aforementioned wadding of cars at the track. The inexperienced drivers would wad anything up just as easily... well, maybe not, if it doesn't have the power.

Just my 2cents, having had a lot of AWD experience. <shrug>

What mods does it have?? Any Graham Goode or MWM/factory works stuff? I remember when they first came out as Ford was scrambling to get an AWD car homologated for Group A. The RWD RS500 coupe they were using immediately after the Group B ban killed the RS200 was great on the dry tarmac stages (in the right hands), but got it's azz kicked against the AWD competition on everything else.
COOL cars. I wish GM had that kind of rallying legacy. The short lived AWD Calibra, and the Group 4 Chevettes just didn't/don't cut it.

This post has been edited by dailydriver: Dec 28 2007, 09:03 PM