Shifting A Dog Ring Transmission Options

[L69-Z28]

I have a new G-Force G5R transmission that I started using this summer. I have found the tranny likes lots of RPMs when using the clutchless upshifting. I'm able to do that pretty good but I have issues when trying to do a clutchless downshift. The clutchless downshifting was one of the reasons why I went with a dogring tranny because I'm not very good at heel-toe (rolling the foot). I now use the clutch everytime when down shifting (still trying to figure out the rpm match). I do shift the gears very quickly and the engine is only a 10.6:1 compression ratio.

I've talked with the manufacture regarding the downshifting. Anyone who uses a dogring tranny shed some light on how they do a clutchless downshift ??
Thanks,
Brian

[StanIROCZ]

There aren't too many on this forum with dog ring trannys. I am one of them but I almost always use the clutch. No clutch shifting sounds glamorous but I've found that I can upshift just as fast with the clutch as I can without. Dog rings make the shift fast, not the clutchless part of it. I can stab the clutch just as fast as I can pull the shifter so why not use the clutch and save some wear and tear on parts?

As far clutchless downshifting, I've tried it on the street a time or 2 and it scared me enough to not try it again. Unless you are left foot braking I don't see any need to not use the clutch... your left foot isn't doing anything else. Heal toe is a totally separate issue than the clutch. Heal toe is the right foot, not the left. You can suck and heal toeing but still use the clutch. You should try and wait as long as possible to downshift,,, maybe even at mid corner right before you want to hit the gas. The lower the engine RPM the easier it is to down shift. There's another pretty recent thread about pedal mods that you can do to help with heal toe.

Funny side bar story. I was having trouble with my throttle sticking after the LS swap this past summer. I did a couple 1/4 mile runs at Gateway Motorsports Park in St. Louis on the Hot Rod Power Tour and my throttle stuck both times. Rather than stopping the run and turning the car off and looking like an ass, I kept going. So the throttle is stuck to the floor and I just leave it there, hit red line, stab the clutch and shift, let it red line, stab the clutch and shift, let it red line, stab the clutch and shift. I had the rev limiter set for the same RPM as I was shifting at so there were no ill effects. After I went through the lights I turned the engine off. There are some more funny stories about this sticking throttle (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And yes it is fixed now and it was fixed before I ever got on the road course again.

[L69-Z28]

There aren't too many on this forum with dog ring trannys. I am one of them but I almost always use the clutch. No clutch shifting sounds glamorous but I've found that I can upshift just as fast with the clutch as I can without. Dog rings make the shift fast, not the clutchless part of it. I can stab the clutch just as fast as I can pull the shifter so why not use the clutch and save some wear and tear on parts?

As far clutchless downshifting, I've tried it on the street a time or 2 and it scared me enough to not try it again. Unless you are left foot braking I don't see any need to not use the clutch... your left foot isn't doing anything else. Heal toe is a totally separate issue than the clutch. Heal toe is the right foot, not the left. You can suck and heal toeing but still use the clutch. You should try and wait as long as possible to downshift,,, maybe even at mid corner right before you want to hit the gas. The lower the engine RPM the easier it is to down shift. There's another pretty recent thread about pedal mods that you can do to help with heal toe.

Funny side bar story. I was having trouble with my throttle sticking after the LS swap this past summer. I did a couple 1/4 mile runs at Gateway Motorsports Park in St. Louis on the Hot Rod Power Tour and my throttle stuck both times. Rather than stopping the run and turning the car off and looking like an ass, I kept going. So the throttle is stuck to the floor and I just leave it there, hit red line, stab the clutch and shift, let it red line, stab the clutch and shift, let it red line, stab the clutch and shift. I had the rev limiter set for the same RPM as I was shifting at so there were no ill effects. After I went through the lights I turned the engine off. There are some more funny stories about this sticking throttle (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And yes it is fixed now and it was fixed before I ever got on the road course again.

Stan, I too did not like the downshifting mechanical sounds and feel. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong. The tranny definitely goes into whatever gear you put it in. I do left foot braking; scares the heck out of the instructors though. Thanks for your input.

By the way, loved the article in Hot Rod Mag of your car and the info. on your web site. I also have a 3rg gen; 1983 L69 Z28. Engine, drivetrain and suspension are all modified. I ran in the Motor State Challenge Event this year but didn't have much seat time with the car and it showed. 1st time ever at Gingerman Raceway, cool track layout. If you don't mind, shoot me a private email; I don't want to waste space here. I would like to ask you some additional things about your car.
Brian

[ReEntryRacer]

Stan's words:

No clutch shifting sounds glamorous but I've found that I can upshift just as fast with the clutch as I can without.

Those words are exactly what I would have to say too. Only one season since I installed Randy Mack's old Tex 101A but I use the clutch to ease the mechanical loads on the spinning parts and it doesn't slow my arm down at all. Never missed a shift, never wished I could shift faster, either up or down. I still grin thinking about how much fun it is!

[L69-Z28]

Stan's words:

No clutch shifting sounds glamorous but I've found that I can upshift just as fast with the clutch as I can without.

Those words are exactly what I would have to say too. Only one season since I installed Randy Mack's old Tex 101A but I use the clutch to ease the mechanical loads on the spinning parts and it doesn't slow my arm down at all. Never missed a shift, never wished I could shift faster, either up or down. I still grin thinking about how much fun it is!

Thanks for your input. 5 grand + and lifting the throttle slightly at the same time doing a quick shift and back on the throttle again is very fast (upshifting). If it was a drag car maybe I would continue this shifting method. But like you guys, I think I'll keep using the clutch. It takes several hours getting the tranny out and that is using a lift and a lot of swearing!! Mabe it would be eaiser if it was built more as a race car, than a street car trying to be a race car.

Brian

[Shortcutsleeping]

Waiting as late as possible to downshift is the first step. I don't shift until a moment before I'm ready for the gas. This means I'm not downshifting and using the clutch to slow the car, this means during hard braking I'm solely focused on the braking and I'm much more consistent, and this means I'm not unnecessarily revving the motor which would mean more wear/heat. I'll jump from 4th to 2nd if the corner warrants it and never go to third. The last thing waiting so late does is that it means the rpms are down which means the rpm gap between gears is much smaller which means it is much easier to downshift smoothly. I am a left foot brake-er and I rarely use the clutch on downshift, but I'm typically at the slowest part of the corner so I'll only need a very slight blip on the throttle as the next gear down is selected. Since I'm going slower the chassis upset is less if I don't get it perfect, and really, in the next moment I'm planting the loud pedal to get out of the corner anyway, so I'm ready and positioned for it.

That's how I do it...works for me.

https://vimeo.com/50276092
Starts a little slow, but gets going at 3:25.
Jerico box.

Costas
cars and such...

[Steve91T]

Waiting as late as possible to downshift is the first step. I don't shift until a moment before I'm ready for the gas. This means I'm not downshifting and using the clutch to slow the car, this means during hard braking I'm solely focused on the braking and I'm much more consistent, and this means I'm not unnecessarily revving the motor which would mean more wear/heat. I'll jump from 4th to 2nd if the corner warrants it and never go to third. The last thing waiting so late does is that it means the rpms are down which means the rpm gap between gears is much smaller which means it is much easier to downshift smoothly. I am a left foot brake-er and I rarely use the clutch on downshift, but I'm typically at the slowest part of the corner so I'll only need a very slight blip on the throttle as the next gear down is selected. Since I'm going slower the chassis upset is less if I don't get it perfect, and really, in the next moment I'm planting the loud pedal to get out of the corner anyway, so I'm ready and positioned for it.

That's how I do it...works for me.

https://vimeo.com/50276092
Starts a little slow, but gets going at 3:25.
Jerico box.

Costas
cars and such...

That was an awesome video!!!

[Al weyman]

I drove my mates 64 Mustang at Daytona last year and he has a dog box in that and I didnt like downshifting clutchless, Ok going up through the gears but I found no advantage whatsover trying to do it coming down through the gears and baulked a couple of times trying so gave up on it. I can only see a speed advantage to be gained going up thriugh the gears in fact the owner of the car messed up his race tryng to downshift as the car got stuck in a gear and he had to stop briefly to sort it out, he also gave it a miss after that.

[CrashTestDummy]

Waiting as late as possible to downshift is the first step. I don't shift until a moment before I'm ready for the gas. This means I'm not downshifting and using the clutch to slow the car, this means during hard braking I'm solely focused on the braking and I'm much more consistent, and this means I'm not unnecessarily revving the motor which would mean more wear/heat. I'll jump from 4th to 2nd if the corner warrants it and never go to third. The last thing waiting so late does is that it means the rpms are down which means the rpm gap between gears is much smaller which means it is much easier to downshift smoothly. I am a left foot brake-er and I rarely use the clutch on downshift, but I'm typically at the slowest part of the corner so I'll only need a very slight blip on the throttle as the next gear down is selected. Since I'm going slower the chassis upset is less if I don't get it perfect, and really, in the next moment I'm planting the loud pedal to get out of the corner anyway, so I'm ready and positioned for it.

That's how I do it...works for me.

https://vimeo.com/50276092
Starts a little slow, but gets going at 3:25.
Jerico box.

Costas
cars and such...

NOT for DSL subscribers!!

[dailydriver]

I always thought it was mainly for strength, and shiftability at high revs that everyone went to a dog box, and NOT for the actual speed of the (clutchless) up OR downshifts?

As in; let's get rid of the weakest point of the gearbox, the synchros/blocker rings? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

Aren't the exorbibtant REAL sequentials, built as strong as possible, the thing you REALLY want for ultra-quick, clutchless, up AND downshifts? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_confused.gif)

[Al weyman]

You may well be right after I popped the slipper plates out of the syncro hubs on one of the Muncie boxes I use after fast changing.

[Doug Phillips]

My protruck has an old T101. I am clutching on the downshifts, tricky with no clutch if the gears are loaded under motor braking. If the revs are not close you can lock up real easy, did that on the first lap of an hour race in front of the whole field. Scary. Lol

Never use clutch on up shift unless it is a low rpm low speed shift.

[Pony Exp.305]

There aren't too many on this forum with dog ring trannys. I am one of them but I almost always use the clutch. No clutch shifting sounds glamorous but I've found that I can upshift just as fast with the clutch as I can without. Dog rings make the shift fast, not the clutchless part of it. I can stab the clutch just as fast as I can pull the shifter so why not use the clutch and save some wear and tear on parts?

As far clutchless downshifting, I've tried it on the street a time or 2 and it scared me enough to not try it again. Unless you are left foot braking I don't see any need to not use the clutch... your left foot isn't doing anything else. Heal toe is a totally separate issue than the clutch. Heal toe is the right foot, not the left. You can suck and heal toeing but still use the clutch. You should try and wait as long as possible to downshift,,, maybe even at mid corner right before you want to hit the gas. The lower the engine RPM the easier it is to down shift. There's another pretty recent thread about pedal mods that you can do to help with heal

I think about buying clutchless. Thanks Stan for sharing this info.
I bought used richmond-tex 4-spd. I talked with Titfon on Clutches/Bellhousing. The guy @Titfon said this trans looks same as T-10. I don't know about that (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .
Pixes:
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0587.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0588.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0598.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0597.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0596.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0590.jpg)
(IMG:http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l268/dy21247/Ls2Camaro/DSCF0589.jpg)

[ReEntryRacer]

Yes that looks like a GForce or Tex 4 speed, which are based on the old Borg-Warner T10.
I have the newer version in my car, which is now made by GForce, but originally known as the Tex101A which adds an internal pump to flow into an external cooler.
The case is magnesium, but its still heavy compared to a t5, for instance. It has standard mounting holes that match any chevy 4-speed bellhousing.
It is one great trans!

[1meanZ]

There are some more funny stories about this sticking throttle (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think the group here would enjoy hearing those stories LOL. Tell the one that involves the Dodge Viper on the Power Tour... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)