Get it together GM Options

[Absolut Speed]

Last fall, GM announced a reduction in GTO production and had to offer large rebates on this brand new model to sell off inventory

In December, GM had a 301 day supply of SSR's on hand.

Then the XLR gets a production cut from 23 to 12 a day. There's a 200 day supply of them out there. Cadillac hoped to sell 6,000 annually, but through 18 months, sold just 4,744.

February, GM decides to cut $1500-$2000 off the sticker mid-year on Trailblazers/Envoys/Rainiers and currently has 0% for 60 months to get them selling again. TrailBlazer sales fell 46% compared with January 2004. Envoy sales were off 52% and Rainier 27% according to Autodata reports.

Then for March, the factory that produces the LaCrosse & Grand Prix is shutting down for a week.

Then the earnings forecast for 2005 drops 80%. Stocks drop to 8 year low.

I think this goes back to cutting the Camaro and Firebird out of the lineup.

[rmackintosh]

GM is "hurtin' for certain" these days...they just don't make S%$T I would consider buying....

EXCEPT the Vette, the sporty Caddies, and a truck....

ALL OTHER CARS THEY MAKE....:BARF:

....it's finally catching up to them....unfortunately... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[trackbird]

I think there is a lot at work here.

Consider that everyone is used to $50,000 rebates and 0%. If I kill off that rebate on the first of next month, I have to convince the public that the car with such a deal is suddenly worth 50k more than it is today. Does that make sense? The rebates drop the percieved value of the product in the consumers mind and once you've done that, good luck getting them to pony up full price when it was "cheap" last week.

The weak economy caused the manufacturers to get creative in order to sell cars and stay in business. This has caused an expectation among consumers that cars should be this cheap. If they discount a car $6,000, I am going to assume that they are still making a profit on it (it does not matter if they are or not, I'll assume that as a consumer. Nobody sells under cost, right? even if they make it up in financing at something over 0%). So, if I am asked to pay full price next month, I will assume that GM wants to make $6,000 profit on my car purchase. I don't feel that GM should make 6k per car and I won't buy the car. So, as they have these rebates "ending", sales fall off (the last time GM killed the rebates that I saw data on, sales dropped 48% in the next 10 days, so back came the rebates). I don't know how they will get out of this, but I don't think the Camaro/Firebird has much bearing on it (I could be wrong).

[pknowles]

I agree with Randy, other then the vette, some caddy's, and the big truck/SUV's I wouldn't touch anything else. Also GM doesn't have a low budget performance car (~20k) that the base Z28 was.

[trackbird]

I agree with Randy, other then the vette, some caddy's, and the big truck/SUV's I wouldn't touch anything else.  Also GM doesn't have a low budget performance car (~20k) that the base Z28 was.

Sure they do, they have that abomination of a cavalier with the wing and the full "fast and furious" option kit for all the kids. That's performance these days. If it comes with clear tail lights, a fart can and a tri-plane wing, it has to be fast. If it were just a Civic, GM wouldn't be able to keep them in stock. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

As far as SUV's, the offerings from Caddy are Fugly (and I really don't like the new cars, look like they were chopped out with an axe). The dressed up version of the Avalanch, complete with "tug boat trim" (bodywork) is even worse than the Chevy version. The Escalade is just as bad, buy a Suburban and spare us the ugly.

I agree, my next one will probably have to be a Corvette. I'm starting to think 2004 Z06's look very good (gently used, if there is such a thing). Or, back to a 3rd gen to play with.

Otherwise, a BMW 330Ci or Audi S4 (M coupe.....Mmmmmm) are climbing towards the top of my list. I'm not a fan of most Japaneese cars (who needs reliability anyway?), but I might go back to Germany for my next one. Unless something changes or I decide on a new Corvette, I don't think I'll be buying anything GM anytime soon (maybe a truck, but I'd probably buy a Ford or Dodge).

[pknowles]

Sure they do, they have that abomination of a cavalier with the wing and the full "fast and furious" option kit for all the kids. That's performance these days. If it comes with clear tail lights, a fart can and a tri-plane wing, it has to be fast. If it were just a Civic, GM wouldn't be able to keep them in stock. 

The worst thing is they Chevy calls it by a different name, but it still looks so much like a cavalier.

[trackbird]

You can't polish a turd.

It's sad that they are pushing the Saturn Redline as their performance compact and not even the Cavalier. Not that either of them are very impressive, but pushing Saturn? Strange.

[rmackintosh]

Otherwise, a BMW 330Ci or Audi S4 (M coupe.....Mmmmmm) are climbing towards the top of my list. I'm not a fan of most Japaneese cars (who needs reliability anyway?), but I might go back to Germany for my next one. Unless something changes or I decide on a new Corvette, I don't think I'll be buying anything GM anytime soon (maybe a truck, but I'd probably buy a Ford or Dodge).

.....I don't think you'll find bliss in Germany....at least not with a BMW and from what I have heard of the problems at the other German giants...

I had a moment of weakness a couple of years ago and broke down and bought a SWEET 530 for my wife...it was a dealer car for 6 months and was lowered just a touch...all the badges were gone, it had M5 wheels on it, etc., etc......it was as nice as you can go in a BMW WITHOUT going M3 or M5....most people thought IT WAS an M5...

DAMN THING RAN GOOD FOR ONE FREAKIN' MONTH THE ENTIRE TWO YEARS I OWED THE POS.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Went through two dealers, BMW North America, and BMW in the "mutherland" ...rebuilt the motor once and the heads TWICE!! before they figured out it was a $30 cam timing sensor off of the motor....when I bitched as to how they missed that FOR TWO YEARS...

I was told....."This is your first BMW isn't it? These cars are VERY complicated machines, and things of this nature are not uncommon..." I watched the BMW N.A. rep give the same B.S. to two other PISSED customers right behind me....as I walked out, both said they were trading their cars in the next weekend on a Volvo and an Audi. I myself traded it in a week later on the Escalade....STILL the nicest vehicle we have ever owned....if only my wife could have gotten over the "I don't like driving a truck..." thing... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[/RANT]

....sorry BMW's REALLY piss me off!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[rpoz-29]

When I bought my Camaro, I received an email from GM asking my opinion of their product line, and what other GM vehicles I owned. My response was that I owned a '73 GT Vega I bought new, and a '69 C-10. I also asked why in hell they went to all the trouble to make sheetmetal for the SSR when they could have made a retro '69 Camaro, a '55 Bel Aire, a '70 Chevelle, etc, just as easily. At least they could have made an SSR Panel Wagon. No more emails.....I think they thought I was being a smart ass. I thought Lutz would turn things around.

[Absolut Speed]

I was kidding about the Camaro/Firebird thing, but the list of attributable faults is so long....

Rebates are certainly a huge issue. They are a nice advert once, but then they cheapen the car, and then you can't get away from them.

Pricing is an issue, as noted with the $2000 MSRP drop in some Trailblazer/Envoys. I think it can be reasonably argued the GTO and SSR were overpriced.

Stigma of poor overall quality from prior decades. It's going to take a lot of time to overcome the perception of lesser quality, that's assuming they are near Honda/Toyota standards now.

Sourcing Chinese engines (personal lament). I was hoping to replace my wife's Bravada with an Equinox, as she likes the ride height of an SUV, and I like throwing the dog in the back along with camping gear. But don't think I can with the Chinese motor, especially when its cousin, the Saturn VUE gets a Honda engine, built in Ohio, that comes with 50 more hp and better fuel mileage.

Bad sales forecasting (see the original post)

Interior quality with cheap plastics and plenty of squeaks.

Interior design has not been one of GM's strengths in recent times.

They're still making overweight cars. The SSR ended up as a pig, and with a lot less hp than initially speculated.

Seen the HHR? It's a PT Cruiser style ride, complete with throwback looks and 4 banger on a compact car chassis, that's arriving 5 years after the PT Cruiser first started cruising the streets. That's what I call behind the curve.

GM was supposed to be at the forefront of hybrid/electric design with the EV1, but the first hybrid success is the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. Then Ford rolls out a hybrid compact SUV just one year after Chevy finally launches a respectable compact SUV. And what does GM do in response, delay the launch of the hybrid VUE.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[00 SS]

I have to agree. GM has very little I would consider buying right now. Most of the SUV's are way over weight, under powered, suck off road and in the snow, get bad milage and aren't much to look at. Of course this can be said of almost all SUV's built today, not just GM. I've never been a small car person and I can't afford a 'vette or even a GTO right now. The less expensive larger car offerings are just boring, under powered and handle crappy.

I would like to go test drive the new Dodge Magnum and Charger. At least in concept, I like them. Rear drive, V8, a real back seat and a good trunk/cargo area makes them look practical and maybe even fun. I also like the looks of the new Mustangs.

I will be in the market for a new daily driver soon and even if I could afford a new car, it would probably not be a GM. I'll probably buy a used Cherokee or Grand Cherokee, '97 or newer.

That said, I plan to keep the Camaro SS and my wifes TA for long time.

[jensend]

Just don't get it. Enthusiasts, like those on this and other GM product based boards, the auto press, and half the people wandering the streets realize what's lacking in GM's products and thinking. Aren't the high $ suits supposed to be at least as savy as "Joe Average"? Hard to believe that they're not consciously trying to fail. Just don't get it!

[Jeff97FST/A]

Given the choice between a Kobalt/Malibu/Monte Carlo and a WRX...

...and we wonder why sales slump....

[trackbird]

Randy,

I fully understand the German car issues. I've owned 4 brand new VW's since 2000 (3-2000's and a 2004). All of the 2000's had bad O2 sensors from the dealer (when new) and they were on national backorder.

The first 2000 Golf had the alarm quit working within 3 weeks and was ok after that (didn't stay long).

The 2000 Jetta lost the wastegate controller at 28,000 miles.

The GTI VR6 broke a tranny mount, the dealer pulled the trans, rebuilt/upgraded it, screwed up 5th gear and took 5 weeks for the first rebuild. Then, the mass air meter died at 28k and they wanted to charge me for it. While it was there, I asked them to fix 5th gear this time. 3 weeks later, I got it back. The next day, the light was on (check engine). They fixed the trans, reset the code on the MAF and left all the hoses from the air box dangling behind the motor. I had another dealer fix the MAF (for free, but it's a porsche, audi, vw, lotus, rolls royce, etc dealer. They want my return business, no matter how much I make in life).

There were other issues as well, but I'm used to the fact that they don't run for long. My Camaro has been the most reliable car we've owned out of the last 6 new cars from 2000 on. All it's needed is a set of water pump gaskets at 48,000 miles (I know of another 2002 car that had the same thing happen) Sad, isn't it?

And, I just bought a 2004 GTI. The drivers side window fell out of the frame and into the door while my wife was leaving work. Had to drive 25 miles with the window down on a 25 degree day to get to the dealer to get it fixed. It had 7,500 miles on it at the time (4 months old). So, I'm curious to see what breaks next.

As I said, who needs reliablilty..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

[rmackintosh]

Yikes! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I just heard that about VW's.....I had em in the past and loved em...when we were looking to replace the "truck" for my wife a few months ago, I test drove the V8 Toureg, and that thing WAS A ROCKET....handled nice and tight....I was so close to convincing my wife to get one....but then all my car shop buddies began bad mouthing VW quality and all the problems they were seeing.....this surprised me! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) So we didn't get it...

...gotta ask....why keep buying VW when EVERY one has been a headache??? I am a reasonable guy, but when I get screwed....I cross that business/car/person off my list for pretty much eternity... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[JonV]

I  Also GM doesn't have a low budget performance car (~20k) that the base Z28 was.

I don't mind the look and price of the new SS Cobalt. I think it will have a chance to do well with the younger crowd. Too bad it ain't RWD. It could be fun car.

However, I had occassion to follow a new car transport today, and I saw what I was sure was some form of a Hyundai. It wasn't until I passed the truck that I realized the Hyundai was a new Buick. Eeeek That thing is UGLY! In my view, GM is really loosing it when they match Hyundai for ugly. Geez I can remeber the old Impalas and Belaires of the mid 60's. They had a ton of beautiful cars back then.

[94bird]

You know, all of you missed one of the biggest contributors to GM's demise. The cost of their pensions and the like for retired employees is astronomical. I seem to remember for every car they sell about $1500 of it goes to paying for their employee's pensions and healthcare. Ford is also paying a high price for their employee benefits but they apparently budgeted much more accurately for it. Regardless of what many of you seem to think the profit margin for a OE is not very high at all on most of their vehicles (except Escalades and the like (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

I don't think GM, Chrysler or Ford have pensions for new employees anymore. I think they all stopped at least 5 years ago.

Toyota, Honda, etc. don't have that to bog them down.

I have to admit DCX is doing VERY well right now, making cars that compete in niche markets and selling more than they can produce. Within 2 weeks of releasing the 300C SRT8 for orders at the dealers there were already over 10,000 orders with deposits. Heck, we had only figured we'd make about that many in the first year. Now, we're playing catch up. DCX plants can't even come close to making enough 300Cs (5.7L). Every one of them that leaves the plant right now is sold. Our engine plant that makes the 5.7L is working 2 assembly lines for 3 shifts a day to try to keep up. Even Business Week just rated DCX as the company within the Big 3 that has the best business plan for future success. It's refreshing actually.

I certainly do wish GM a quick turnaround, but financially they're in serious trouble, and unless they get on the ball soon and make some car designs that really turn heads it won't get any better.

[pknowles]

I would like to go test drive the new Dodge Magnum and Charger. At least in concept, I like them. Rear drive, V8, a real back seat and a good trunk/cargo area makes them look practical and maybe even fun.

The "new" Magnum is funny to me. Ads are saying inovation, I say the rebirth of the station wagon. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[94bird]

The "new" Magnum is funny to me. Ads are saying inovation, I say the rebirth of the station wagon. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I agree. It's a station wagon. It's a far sight cooler than any other station wagon out there though. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Drive a SRT version and you'd understand the appeal.

[trackbird]

Regardless of what many of you seem to think the profit margin for a OE is not very high at all on most of their vehicles (except Escalades and the like (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Mike, I don't disagree with you. My point earlier is that if they can run a $5,000 rebate, the general public will assume there is that much profit in each car and they don't want the manufacturers making $5k on them alone. It's a perception, even if it's wrong. Redneck logic or something like that. People don't believe that companies will sell things under cost, so it must have $5k profit in it, right? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)