I've been thinking, and since this is general discussion.... Options

[Jon A]

One quick request for clarification and I'll leave the rest alone, Sam.

I made drop PHB brackets way back in '99-2000.  In an effort to calm the tail of the cars (and folks on this board have seen them, they aren't vaporware).  While messing with designs to get the strength I wanted/need from the, I stumbled across a few things that were at the time outside the box ideas that did the job I was seeking.  So the re-engineering of the wheel I was going to do, wasn't necessary IMHO. 

Could you clairify the above to avoid a bunch of people getting confused?

Are you saying: A) You built brackets, but then decided not to install them. So you never installed them and attempted to tune the setup on your car with them?

Or, B ) Are you saying you did actually install them, tested them extensively and decided you didn't like them?

Being clear will keep people from making assumptions.

theory, or text book based cars....No text book voodoo.

While it may make for some zingy buzz-words, it's quite myopic to believe just because a car doesn't autocross in ESP that it must be a "textbook car," "theory car," etc. For example, one can go back to the original bumpstop thread and see the pics of Lou's WC car with lower ride height, shorter shocks, bumpstops removed, LCA brackets, PHB lowering brackets, etc, etc. One could call cars like that or race-winning AI cars "theory cars," etc, but it's pretty insulting to those who built them, raced them and won in them.

[trackbird]

Sam Jr. is always helpful.

Sam is Sam Jr. At least the Sam in this thread.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Teutonic Speedra...]

theory, or text book based cars....No text book voodoo.

While it may make for some zingy buzz-words, it's quite myopic to believe just because a car doesn't autocross in ESP that it must be a "textbook car," "theory car," etc. For example, one can go back to the original bumpstop thread and see the pics of Lou's WC car with lower ride height, shorter shocks, bumpstops removed, LCA brackets, PHB lowering brackets, etc, etc. One could call cars like that or race-winning AI cars "theory cars," etc, but it's pretty insulting to those who built them, raced them and won in them.

Welcome back Jon!

[Jeff94TA]

theory, or text book based cars....No text book voodoo.

While it may make for some zingy buzz-words, it's quite myopic to believe just because a car doesn't autocross in ESP that it must be a "textbook car," "theory car," etc. For example, one can go back to the original bumpstop thread and see the pics of Lou's WC car with lower ride height, shorter shocks, bumpstops removed, LCA brackets, PHB lowering brackets, etc, etc. One could call cars like that or race-winning AI cars "theory cars," etc, but it's pretty insulting to those who built them, raced them and won in them.

Nice editing of the original post to go off on your tangent that seems to have no bearing on what he was posting. He mentioned his favorite cars for multiple classes and you focused on ESP with an ultimate twist on AI. All I have to say is WTF? Here is the original quote that Jon shortened.

We can't automatically assume that theory, or text book based cars are in the real world faster.

My 3 favorite autox cars, a BMW 3 series in DSP, a BMW M3 in BSP, and an ESP F-body. Fastest F-body shop. Sam's. And will admit to a tried and true setup from TONS of testing.
Fastest Bimmers. Tunnels shop. Same thing. TONS of testing. No text book voodoo.

[trackbird]

Guys.... Relax. This thread has been fine so far and I want it to stay that way. The statement eariler about agreeing to disagree is a good way to handle things.

[firehawkclone]

Sam I will say the same thing everyone else has said, you educate without belittling people (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That and your integrity goes a long way with me and so many other's!

I know it's not easy to let people attack your integrity and let it go, but sometime's it's the best thing to do.

So hang in there buddy, your not alone here and never will be!

I will be calling you soon for a few thing's (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jon A]

Nice editing of the original post to go off on your tangent that seems to have no bearing on what he was posting....

What in the hell are you talking about? I focused on ESP because it's an F-Body class. This isn't BMWRRAX.com. Lonnie was refering to those F-Bodies that differ from Sam's setup as "theory cars" and "textbook cars." I just pointed out I don't think that's right since all those "theories" have been well proven on F-Bodies in the past in other classes.

From now on I could quote somebody's entire post if that would make you feel better. Doing that makes posts very cluttered and difficult for the reader to understand what the hell you're talking about. Whether or not Bob spends much time under his customers' BMW's or who had a broken torque arm or who had a front end appart or who sets up BMW's well has absolutely nothing to do with the counterpoint I was making. But you feel I should quote all that stuff anyway? Why, exactly? It's already written--scroll up if you want to read it again.

Edit: I tried it to make a point by quoting just Lonnies post and yours but didn't want to needlessly clutter the thread. It was ugly.

In any case, when you see a "..." in a quote (ever read the newspaper?) that means the writer is editing out something he felt wasn't germain to the discussion for the sake of brevity. If somebody is trying to pull the wool over the readers' eyes, he leaves out the "...". The "..." makes it clear it isn't a complete quote so those interested can scroll up an inch or two without making everybody else suffer.

This post has been edited by Jon A: Nov 15 2005, 07:12 AM

[Jon A]

I know it's not easy to let people attack your integrity and let it go, but sometime's it's the best thing to do....

OK, I was going to let that subject go, but it doesn't feel good to have my integrity questioned either.

I never called Sam a liar. Look at the thread he's talking about and see for yourself. I never questioned his word about what he saw at all.

The BS flag was thrown on his admitted guesses about what he saw. I said he was wrong about being able to tell spring rates as accurately as he thinks by just looking at the springs from underneath the car. That's a far, far, cry from calling somebody a liar.

Somebody telling the world you called him a liar, when in fact you did not, feels quite belittling in my book. If you don't think he does it, just do something stupid like lowering your PHB, shortening your shocks or removing your bumpstops and have the gall to say you like it. Your car will be belittled, your driving will be belittled, and your mother will wear combat boots (OK, that's an exaggeration in an effort to keep the thread lighthearted). See===> (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . But I'm not the only one in this thread who has been on the recieving end of his belittling.

I really don't mind people thinking I'm the bad guy. Getting accurate information out there, getting the truth out there is what's important to me.

That's the only reason I even entered this thread--asking for clarification on the PHB brackets. As an example of what he has "tried but didn't work" he lists the PHB brackets he made. Upon first read, many may come to one conclusion that leads him to ask for a "detailed report" on his experience with them. I thought it was important to ask if they ever got on his car or not. I have faith in Sam's integrity to clarify the issue and give us a detailed report on the extent of his experience with them on his car. I know he won't lie. I may think he's wrong about many things, but I don't think he's a liar.

It's the truth that matters. If it takes a "bad guy" to point it out, I'd rather be that bad guy than let bad info spread like wildfire over the internet.

[Teutonic Speedra...]

If you don't think he does it, just do something stupid like lowering your PHB, shortening your shocks or removing your bumpstops and have the gall to say you like it.  Your car will be belittled, your driving will be belittled, and your mother will wear combat boots (OK, that's an exaggeration in an effort to keep the thread lighthearted).    See===> (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)   .  But I'm not the only one in this thread who has been on the recieving end of his belittling. 

It happened to me. I was told by him in a PHR Relo thread "I told you all you needed some bumpstop and that shock stops weren't right. I was universally told I was wrong. I wasn't. Broken shocks resulted". My bumpstops are removed and yet my shocks still work fine and are not broken after a year of track days (~15 day), including bumpy tracks like Limerock and Summit Point. I was also given a hard time about improved lap times that I mentioned. Was told the driver gained experience. True, every driver gains experience every time they get in the car. The car was definitely easier to drive, and the increase in lap times was not all driver experience from the end of the prior year to the start of the next year. (3+ seconds on a 1:00/lap track is hard to gain over the off-season/winter just by experience. The PHR Relo was able to be felt on the street, 5 minutes after I installed it.

Improving the car and driver in all aspects is what this board is about and is my goal! This includes driver techniques, engine, suspension, brakes, and safety. That's why we are all here, correct?

This post has been edited by Teutonic Speedracer: Nov 15 2005, 11:55 AM

[sgarnett]

Improving the car and driver in all aspects is what this board is about and is my goal! This includes driver techniques, engine, suspension, brakes, and safety.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

[Teutonic Speedra...]

Improving the car and driver in all aspects is what this board is about and is my goal!  This includes driver techniques, engine, suspension, brakes, and safety.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

Forgot aerodynamics and weight removal!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) :leaving:

[firehawkclone]

I know it's not easy to let people attack your integrity and let it go, but sometime's it's the best thing to do....

OK, I was going to let that subject go, but it doesn't feel good to have my integrity questioned either.

I never called Sam a liar. Look at the thread he's talking about and see for yourself. I never questioned his word about what he saw at all.

The BS flag was thrown on his admitted guesses about what he saw. I said he was wrong about being able to tell spring rates as accurately as he thinks by just looking at the springs from underneath the car. That's a far, far, cry from calling somebody a liar.

Somebody telling the world you called him a liar, when in fact you did not, feels quite belittling in my book. If you don't think he does it, just do something stupid like lowering your PHB, shortening your shocks or removing your bumpstops and have the gall to say you like it. Your car will be belittled, your driving will be belittled, and your mother will wear combat boots (OK, that's an exaggeration in an effort to keep the thread lighthearted). See===> (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . But I'm not the only one in this thread who has been on the recieving end of his belittling.

I really don't mind people thinking I'm the bad guy. Getting accurate information out there, getting the truth out there is what's important to me.

That's the only reason I even entered this thread--asking for clarification on the PHB brackets. As an example of what he has "tried but didn't work" he lists the PHB brackets he made. Upon first read, many may come to one conclusion that leads him to ask for a "detailed report" on his experience with them. I thought it was important to ask if they ever got on his car or not. I have faith in Sam's integrity to clarify the issue and give us a detailed report on the extent of his experience with them on his car. I know he won't lie. I may think he's wrong about many things, but I don't think he's a liar.

It's the truth that matters. If it takes a "bad guy" to point it out, I'd rather be that bad guy than let bad info spread like wildfire over the internet.

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Jon! I WAS NOT going after YOU or anybody else for that matter, for what was posted in another thread ! I have not read this thread that you are reffering too! So THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU Jon!

It is a GENERAL saying we have all heard before, and one I didn't follow as a younger man myself! I'm not keeping track of who is mad (or said this) at who on this board at one time or another! This is school crap, and I AM to old to be doing this myself!

This was a thread to thank Sam for his hard work, just like the one for YOU! There is notting else going on here, atleast not in my post!

I have been here for sometime now Jon, And I have stayed out of all that bickering without taking a side!

You started something with me, when there was no reason too!

[trackbird]

Listen guys (all of you collectively, not just John and Jon or anyone specific).... We've proven time and time again that this board is made up of several groups who see some things differently (roadracers/autocrossers). Some things transfer between the two and I am very aware that an autocross car can be very fast around a race track. I'm also aware that some of the road race setups, that are also very fast around a race track, may not be driveable on an autocross course. Does this make either approach wrong? Not really, it just depends on what you're trying to do and how you wish to accomplish it.

We also have two other schools of though here. There are the guys who wish to do a more standard "Spring, Shock, Bar" combo (which is how my car is setup and works well for me with no muss, no fuss). And, we have the group who want to push the limits and relocate suspension pickup points, move things, cut, bend, modify things, change geometry, etc. These guys are paving a trail. You may not choose to follow it, you may not even want it on your map, but it's a trail none the less and just because it's new and different doesn't make it instantly wrong (I'm directing this to everyone, Sam, don't think I'm singling you out here...I'm not....but this is as good of a place as any for us to discuss the differences in the groups/approaches and try to come to terms with it).

The source of most of our problems is friction between these groups. Someone wants to try something new, or new to them and an arguement breaks out. Sometimes you just can't tell people things. I shortened my rear Koni's against the recommendations of some members here. No amount of argueing/advice was going to convince me not to try something new to me. I've now tried it and I think I might go back to a stock length shock. So, all the stress in that thread was for nothing and has been mostly forgotten. When people try new things, it's not a personal attack on anyone here. It's part of a learning curve. I pride myself in the fact that this board is like a college level course and people will try new things. If you want to go fast for minimal trouble and experimentation, we have setups for that. If you want to try something new and triumph or fail gloriously, go for it.

We have room for everyone.

We must learn to agree to disagree.....

My thoughts.....

[sgarnett]

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU
...
This is school crap, and I AM to old to be doing this myself!

This was a thread to thank Sam for his hard work
...
You started something with me, when there was no reason too!

Actually, it was a thread for Sam to get some things off his chest, but kudos certainly fit in there too.

You've touched on a bigger problem, though. While there is certainly some intended jabbing that gets mixed in with healthy disagreement, I think it's far too common to perceive an attack where none was intended.

I've been on both ends of that myself too often.

Most of us fit at least one, and many of us fit all, of the following descriptions:
- male
- gearhead
- competitor
- engineer

That means that many of us have all the social and communication skills of a tree stump. Personally, I'm all four, so I might even be a little behind the tree stump. If any of us were looking for a truly warm and fuzzy experience, we probably wouldn't be competitors anyway.

This might be where some people might say we need to become more sensitive to how others may feel. Personally, this is where I say we all need to be just a bit more thick-skinned.

BTW, I probably learn the most through disagreement. That may be through someone else proving me wrong, or it may be through being unable to prove someone else wrong (hmmm, maybe they have a point ...) or it may be through being forced to further clarify my thoughts to prove myself correct. It's all good, but expecting my fellow tree stumps to "deliver bad news in a good way [Mel Brooks]" is silly.

[Sam Strano]

Wow, that sure didn't take long now did it. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm not going to rehash all the old stuff *again*. I never said I knew exactly the springs rates on the A-Sedan car. But you know what, I saw it looked at it, admitted that I didn't know the rates, then gave an estimate based on seeing a LOT of springs. Your choice to not beleive me, or even think I'm capable of a close estimate. Typical.

I never did install *my set on my car* because I wasn't happy with the range of adjustment and the mounting. So you can blast away (and I'm sure you will) before you read this part. I have worked a lot wtih lowered PHB's and roll-centers on solid axle cars. Whilst they may not be mine, I've learned a lot through other cars. I've managed to setup some cars that have won titles in other classes, even though I didn't own them. Aaron can attest to what I did to his Z06, and I don't own a Corvette. I found a fix to the issue I was after to fix. At the time nobody was making these, and from a business standpoint I could have sold lots of them. But I didn't because I didn't feel it was needed or right. MHO. I've worked with multiple Mustangs and the PHB height. And lowering the car also drops the roll center as well, which we've also done a lot of. And Lonnie tried it and I messed with it there as well, Ok?

For those that haven't broken shocks. Good for your. Fact is a number of people have broken shocks. You might not blow your engine a quart down on Wal-mart oil, but it's not smart and could very well happen (and has). Further I'll point out that in a few of those cases it wasn't even known the shocks were broken until they were fixed, and a broken damping can be very hard to track down. I've had broken shocks that I didn't realize for a long time, and clearly it happens to others since Smith took the time to not only mention it in his books, but to give a test to let the driver feel what a weak shock might feel like (and that's just weak, not broken). Of course those without adjustable shocks can't even run the test.

But I think this illustrates exactly what I was getting at when I composed this post. the BS flag was raised, again I've been told there is no way I can estimate a spring rate by looking at it (and I couldn't without a lot of experience looking at spring). You could paint street springs all the same color and I'd be able to tell you which was which because I'm familiar with looking at them, much like I can look at a 450 spring and know it's not a 650 or 800 and vice-versa.

It's become extremely tiresome, and the sad part is it stems from a very few persons.

[marka]

Howdy,

Sam, just quit paying attention to the people that piss you off with their opinions.

Seriously. Its no skin off your nose if they wanna drop their panhards and proclaim to the world that its the best thing since sliced bread or whatever. So what if Joe Newby sees that and decides that the first modification he should make is to drop his panhard? Joe Newby is gonna quickly figure out that perhaps there are other (easier) ways to go faster quicker and some people just can't be told what works, they need to scrape their knucles themselves a few times.

When someone takes those alternate setup paths on a car that actually can, you know, _run anywhere near your times_, _then_ worry about it.

Mark

[trackbird]

Actually, it was a thread for Sam to get some things off his chest, but kudos certainly fit in there too.

Yes, it was...and I didn't mean to rain on that. It seemed we were heading that way (maybe I'm just paranoid these days) and I figured it was as good of a place as any to discuss the various schools of thought on chasis setup and explain that all ideas are welcome here. I didn't mean to step on any toes, it truly wasn't my intent.

[Sam Strano]

Howdy,

Sam, just quit paying attention to the people that piss you off with their opinions.

Seriously. Its no skin off your nose if they wanna drop their panhards and proclaim to the world that its the best thing since sliced bread or whatever. So what if Joe Newby sees that and decides that the first modification he should make is to drop his panhard? Joe Newby is gonna quickly figure out that perhaps there are other (easier) ways to go faster quicker and some people just can't be told what works, they need to scrape their knucles themselves a few times.

When someone takes those alternate setup paths on a car that actually can, you know, _run anywhere near your times_, _then_ worry about it.

Mark

Unfortunately, perception is reality... and I make my living in a real world. If someone wants to disagree, that's fine. However with a lot of the attacks and mis-representations made about my thoughts (and some more just happened in another thread, which were all wrong fwiw), folks tend to believe what they see. I only ask for the chance to make my case on the phone, but feel at times I don't get that opprotunity after some of the things that are said get said.

As for the matter of how quick I am, well that seemingly doesn't hold water. I suddenly become the BEST DRIVER EVER and the car setup really isn't part of it, or doesn't matter because it's not real-world or oh-so different from track driving (none of which is true), but the perception is there. And in the past when I've had the gall to point to results to show something (for instance there is a fast ESP car in SoCal that I can use for reference vs. the other CA cars), I get attacked for being cocky and THEN I hear how you can't compare. Weird. I think if I beat Joe-Bob consistently, and Joe-Bob beats Billy-Bob consistently that you could infer something from that. Guess not. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[marka]

Howdy,

Well then, there's only one way to fix this as I see it...

Sam, you'll just have to give me your car for the year next year.

Certainly nobody can claim _I_ drive particularly well... And if they doubt that, we can just show them the tape of my runs on the South course this year... :-)

Of course, to make it an accurate test, someone will have to build up and give me an F-body with a decoupled torque arm, lowered panhard, stiffer springs, etc. as well...

I am, in fact, willing to make this sacrifice.

:-)

Mark

[marka]

Howdy,

Seriously... Sam, my advice is this...

Stop worrying quite so much about folks making bad setup decisions. I know, from personal experience, that you'll sell me parts you don't think will work. I _also_ know, from personal experience, how valuable it is to have someone I trust give me their honest feedback.

Keep offering that feedback, but if folks don't want to take it, its not worth getting pissed about. Like you say, you sell all the same parts as everyone else (essentially).

If the perception does shift to an F-body in ESP needing a decoupled torque arm, lowered panhard, extremely stiff springs, etc... Let folks know that you haven't found that to be the case, but if they wanna go that route, you'll be happy to sell 'em the parts and offer advice on making it all work the best it can.

This isn't anything different than you do now for the most part. On the phone & in person you do that currently. Online it isn't quite as clear.

In the end you make your living selling parts. One thing that differentiates you from other folks is that you're quite good at advising folks on what parts they could use to meet a goal, but that's a "nice" thing, not a required thing. If you've got some customers that don't want to take advantage of that... So what?

Mark

(edit) It just isn't worth the rise in blood pressure... If its pissing you off as much as it seems to be doing, just let it go. Folks in general will still follow your lead as long as your setups are at the top of the heap like they are now.

This post has been edited by marka: Nov 15 2005, 05:27 PM