I was just pondering what things I've done that were the same old, same old in terms of my business and car setup stuff. I'm tired of hearing that I'm out only sell parts, and will do so by any means necessary. I'm tired of having quotes laid at my feet that are taken completely out of context. And I've been called a liar (just recently in a thread about the A-Sedan cars at the Runoffs).

So I've thought about it, and I'm posting a response.

First let me address the notion that I think in this little tiny box and don't try things. Here's a breif list of things I've tried and have WORKED with regards to the f-body, particularly the 4th gen:

1. The T2R. How many ran the T2R before I showed up? Very few. How many even realized how important a LSD that works is to the handling as well as the traction of the car? Next to none.

2. Large front swaybars as well as "intermediate" rear bars in combination. Before me everyone used a 32mm front bar. Some stayed 19, some went 21 rear. A very few who were never fast went to big bars at both ends. I ran a 35/21 combo first (and did it before SLP did, starting in late '99).

3. Started the education on shock valving... Before me you had HD's and SLP's and Koni's. Only the Koni's capable of damping the spring most of us run, but most folks were cheap, didn't know any better, or fell for a sales pitch that HD's are just fine. Even some folks who are now selling "trick" shocks were on the phone with me as little as 2 years ago wanting to know why HD's weren't up to the job.

4. Showed that removal of the rear bumpstops can cause shock failure, and proved it more than once. And I stuck with it despite being shouted down a few times....

5. Showed that the evil bumpstop is really more of a bump rubber that does eventually act as a stop, but that with proper shock tuning it works simply as supplemental spring, but one that does NOT return energy like a spring does. You might disagree, but there are plenty of points proving the STOP doesn't spike you spring rate, and even a cool video Rushman took that showed that rear axle never bangs into them (of course he has good shocks, a decent ride height and good spring rates).


These are some of what I've done that worked. I've tired a number of things that have not worked, and because they aren't made very public it's assumed I haven't tried them. That's simply ignorant, and sadly ignorance can be contagious. :stupid:

Here's an example.... I made drop PHB brackets way back in '99-2000. In an effort to calm the tail of the cars (and folks on this board have seen them, they aren't vaporware). While messing with designs to get the strength I wanted/need from the, I stumbled across a few things that were at the time outside the box ideas that did the job I was seeking. So the re-engineering of the wheel I was going to do, wasn't necessary IMHO. Some think it is, and that's fine. But if you don't know me, and haven't been privy to conversations with me, you really should not assume you know all the details of my life and business. And when I say the Tom Aquilante Racing A-Sedan cars at the Runoffs, *I* was the one who checked them out. Not anyone else here, and when I found what I found what I did, I was abused for it because it happend to pretty closely resemble that tact I take. You can bet if it had been the "other" ideas I'd have been driving into the ground about that. Damned if I do, damned if I don't with some people here.

I just wanted to take the time to clear my head of some of this stuff. There are somethings going on in my life right now that make me wonder why I pour my heart into my work and my hobby like I do when I'm attacked for giving my opinion and have the gall to try and back up my claims. And it sucks.

The other thing that makes me differnet, and I've think I've been kind of a pioneer of is the way I recommend parts. I look around at the different boards and never, NEVER see anyone else saying "I don't feel you need this part" or some such example. I call a spade a spade, often to the extent of making smaller and sometimes NO SALE. And I'm that turns me into the slick used car salesman type. That's truly sad, and very dis-heartening.

Unless this thread is deleted, I'm going to bookmark it. That way the next time I hear about how selfish I am, or how I just push a prepackaged setup with the inference that it wasn't worked on and worked on very hard, etc. I can just put in the link... Much like I've had to do with the link to the Bilstein catalog into to dispell some of the rampant misinformation some folks spread about Bilstein HD's being so great for lowering springs.

EDIT: I want to add this in no way is to say that other opinions are not valid. Much like I thought out of the box, others are now doing. The point is simply there are very few truly new ideas in the world, and a number of the ideas out there now are not only not new, but have been tried many times before. This is not a statement on what works or doesn't in theory, or even what can be made to work, well or otherwise.

Well said. I'm glad you got some of this stuff off your chest.

You've always been very helpful, to many different people. You do put a lot into this. I appreciate that.

I'm glad this forum is here and we do get so many different ideas.
It's been said that every song or story has already been written before...
That's sort of true but there is always a new twist, a new chord, new circumstances, new combinations.
A lot of tried and true stuff, yet we're all still pioneering in a sense too.

No reason to delete it....I hope I don't have to lock it later, but I don't see any reason to delete it.

Sam, you rock!

long version: first few time we talked you spent HOURS explaining stuff to do without making me feel like a newbie, a customer, or a 'walking wad of cash' that normal salesman do instantly.

your suspension is THE ONLY part of my car that I haven't had issues with.

you're the only salesman ever that told me what i _don't_ need.

that's just off top of my head, and now i gotta run.

thanks for everything,
Marcin

It's certainly tiresome and unrewarding to get up and do it again, day after day, when one drives home left with the notion that he is unappreciated, misunderstood, perhaps even something of a whipping boy. I guess I'm lucky that my sense of self worth (at least that part of it which identifies with my vocation) hinges almost solely on my own very critical eye. I am, by far, my own harshest critic. It rarely matters one iota to me what my coworkers or even my supervisors think of how well I do my job. I KNOW I am doing the best I can. Moreover, I know I am doing it better than nearly all of them could do. If they disagree, I will invite them to try on my size 12 steel toed boots for a day while I sit back and learn whatever they think they can teach.

Naturally, this 'attitude' earns me the reputation as arrogant, even something of a snob (I work in the oilfield, surrounded by roughnecks and rednecks.) And I grant you it can be lonely. It must be even more so in Sam's situation, where a mans livelihood and his passion are so intertwined. I mean, he can't exactly escape the injustices of the office through his automotive hobby, can he?

I've observed these pissing matches quietly, all the time wishing the participants could see themselves from where I stand. It could actually be the source of a great deal of humor here if everyone weren't taking themselves so seriously. This is supposed to be FUN!! A certain PoliSci professor of mine would have said " we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that." He was SO intense and dynamic! But as passionate as he may have been, and as vehemently as he would debate, he would never digress to undermining his opponent's dignity. No matter how wrong they were.

There is room here for dissent, divergent theories, and incompatible philosophies, but it is too small a space for disrespect. You guy's have all done your time. You all have the credentials to back up the public profile. You all have something to say (within this context at least) worth hearing. So agree to disagree. And lighten the hell up on each other.

Tony

Sam,

I am truly sorry you feel this way. You were a TREMENDOUS help to me when I first set up my car with a ZERO KNOWLEDGE BASE of the Camaro and what I wanted to do with it. I still have parts from you on the car to this day! And I still call your mom for all the consumables....ie Hawk rear pads, etc......that I can during the course of the season.

That said, it makes me sad that a lot of threads involving you and some "others" always seem to turn out nasty. I hope that from now on all parties involved in this can "be the bigger person" and not result to little needling comments, or responding and escalating such situations. I may have gone away from your base set up, to a set up that I THINK (no pro driver/engineer here ) is faster for me, but I would NEVER say that your advice/opinions were not important.....ESPECIALLY to those who compete in autocross events.

I hope that whatever is "transpiring" in your life that is difficult right now goes away as soon as possible.....GOOD LUCK!

Randy

Sam I think you should take heart in the fact that so many have followed your methodolgy and done well with it. I think most fbody performance enthusiasts consider you to the the "Fbody God of Handling." While a few have given you a hard time, this is a very small percentage of the people that know you. Any time some one is as widely known as you are, there will be a few like this. Another point is, familiarity breeds contempt. Many people on this board know you so well that they are quite uninhibited with experessing any slight difference they might have, much like a husband and wife. Then these differences get blown way out of proportion. My wife is more critical of me than anyone else I know!

Keep up the good work!

I think that RIGHT THERE is how we should ALL strive to "disagree" with each other in the future! I never understood why all the disagreements have to get so personal anyway....

...good post....

Randy beat me to it. If we could learn to take that approach, it would save me hours of time and headaches.

I'll admit that when it all goes to crap around here, as it sometimes does, and my PM box and e-mail box start filling up....I get a bit frustrated. I've spent countless hours sending PM's, e-mails, etc and keeping track of threads that are headed for trouble. These days I can read through a thread and if I get that certain feeling....I know I'll be busy. My wife has suggested that I sell the board on more than on occasion when I was knee deep in some mess or another. And, a few of those times, I've considered it. So far, I can't do it since I bought this place to protect our home. I was afraid that someone would try to make a general F-body site out of it (there's a heck of a lot more money in that than there is in this) and try to turn it into a profit based venture.

Sam has been beyond helpful to me. I order what I can from Sam when I need parts and have received tons of advice that has been worth far more than I've paid for it (usually free at the time...thanks Sam).

I have the itch to try other things and plan to work some of Jason's stuff into my car in the future. The car is not ESP legal, and I'll get killed on a national level in the classes I can run, so I'm pretty free to experiment and not feel bad about it. This is not to take anything away from Sam and the advice I've received (and not always listened to....I'll probably be replacing my shortened rear Koni's soon), but to say that I'm interested in learning what I can and trying new things. Some things work, some things don't. Sam and I don't always agree, but we never argue about it.....

....we just agree to disagree.....and that's the end of it.

And Sam, I hope that you get your current situation sorted out and that all of it will work out for you in the end. If I can help, drop me a line.

Then why didn't you say so earlier? I believe you, it's just that it would've helped out tremendously in one thread had you mentioned your personal experience and provided us with a detailed report. Details.

And I'm sorry about the ESP thread. I wasn't thinking when I posted my comments on ESP cars. I didn't mean for someone to be insulted by it.

In my own field I have learned some hard lessons over the years and I think the biggest problem with technical discourse has been addressed here by Tony and others. If basic respect and thoughtful consideration for another's hard work is offered, disagreements tend to be over technical issues and do not dissolve into something personal tangled up with those opinions.

I also have learned that as I got more exposure and notoriety in my business I was exposed to a larger section of consumers and not everyone is going to appreciate your work or be able to be pleased in spite of your efforts. Situation normal! Makes those that do, the majority thank goodness, a joy that makes it all worthwhile. It is easy to get stuck on the negative. I think I spent most of my 30s there!

Sam, I don't know much. But through the PMs we've sent through LS1tech and the advice you've given me. You have been a tremendous help, I actually had Bilstein HDs on order when I had my DMS springs. Then I saw a thread where you were talking about Koni's, well I bought 2 Koni's for the front and love them. I also sold my DMS springs and this Christmas I'll be doing business with you. Ground Controls

I respect and love reading everything you have to say....

I'll give you a

You know the story and don't need much more.

Hope things work out for you. Maybe you could use a day or two off? Not for autoxing but just chilling.

I think some of the 'heated debates' start because people don't always know what tone the author is trying to use. I know I've tried having some good natured fun with friends through e-mail and it backfired. When some people type they just don't get their point across how they want. I've been guilty of it and now I work to avoid it, that has to be why smilies were invented.

I've met Sam over the summer and he took the time explain the different features of the seats I was looking at. He didn't even know that I post on this board until halfway through our conversation. When I get the extra money I'll buy from him, even if other places have cheaper shipping. When I first got there he was talking about brakes with someone for a while.

Sam is a really helpful guy,

If you happen to find your way out here again... My car is back and you can try the FX1 for youself.

Chris stopped by when my car was on loan to Mark Andy and couldn't exactly see what my seat was like. Oops.

I think a couple of months off might do. Days off do not help I'm afraid.
Hey that reminds me Lonnie... ever get a chance to send those Koni's I lent you back this way?

At the Oscoda Pro, Sam was skipping back and forth between two or three of us working on our cars. I had a bum torque arm mount, Brian (bigenos) had his front end apart, and seems like maybe Phil was working on something.

I've gotten alot of parts, at a great price with great advice. I can make it to at least a couple events with the oppurtunity to put him in the car and possibly to get in his. I've co-driven in the rain because he had rains and I didn't.

The list goes on about character calls. (usually centers around my car broken)


As far as setup, the fastest ESP f-body is still Sam's ESP car. And since the rally cars are gonna be gone, we'll get another go-around next season as well.

We can't automatically assume that theory, or text book based cars are in the real world faster.

My 3 favorite autox cars, a BMW 3 series in DSP, a BMW M3 in BSP, and an ESP F-body. Fastest F-body shop. Sam's. And will admit to a tried and true setup from TONS of testing.
Fastest Bimmers. Tunnels shop. Same thing. TONS of testing. No text book voodoo.

It is what looks like similar customer service although I don't see Bob UNDER someones car helping them work on it. (And I've never dealt with Bob as I don't own a BMW)

I got them off Sunday and was going to send them today, but I forgot your address. I know it's been a few weeks since you reminded me, but I'll get em' out tomorrow.

And I'll send the 'renters fee' with the package. I don't like to borrow things but the car worked so damn well, and I couldn't spring for new ones....I know you don't want anything but that's to bad.


Another example of Sam's helpfullness. He's got an idea what I can/can't afford. I was in a situation of "needing" shocks, so he let me borrow a set that I ended up using till I was done for the year.

Note that he knows my situation and may know yours. I wouldn't solicit the borrowing of shocks just cause your a cheapskate.

Sam's been able to help my car setup - when I actually listen to him. I managed to get a stack of shock curves that helped me make my own conclusion. Hopefully I got the cash next year for some Konis for my car... I really want to try to make my 35mm front bar work (on the Z06) since Pat only had the 32 on. And of course there were still people saying this year "the car doesn't need a bar".

Sam, I am really sorry to hear you feel like that. That is a lousy spot to be.

Let me add my own perspective and see if it helps you understand that thee are many out here that do appreciate you.

Fact is, I pretty much use you as the bible on car handling. I know there are other opinions out there, but you seem to contribute most here. I've followed your recommendations and I've never been disappointed.

Of course, i don't really take the whole autox and solo 1 stuff nearly as seriously as others do. That makes me a bit of a know nothing by comparison to many people here. It also makes it imperative that I find a reliable source of info that has invested heavily in his craft, and a source of info that I can count on being around next week, next year, next decade etc. I don't know of anyone else that I have that much faith in.

Then your staff. Sam Jr. is always helpful. Arlyn is just a doll, as far as I am concerned. BTW how is she? Did she get her knee done? Hope everything is well with her.

As for detractors, and those who malign you. Well, I look at those folks this way. In many instances they just don't know as much as I do. That's fine. It is also fine if they want to argue their point of view. As soon as they step over the line into character assasinations, they have proved to me that their argument has nothing at all to do with finding truth; it is only to prop up a weak ego. For that they wil always have my sympathies, but I will never engage them in a discussion from that point on.

I suggest that you do the same. Don't let people who really need a psychologist beat up on you or try to build a sense of self worth on your back.

Piss on them. They aren't worth your time.

And if you absolutely must talk to them, talk about the weather.

Good luck Sam. I hope you get feeling better about things soon.

One quick request for clarification and I'll leave the rest alone, Sam.

Could you clairify the above to avoid a bunch of people getting confused?

Are you saying: A) You built brackets, but then decided not to install them. So you never installed them and attempted to tune the setup on your car with them?

Or, B ) Are you saying you did actually install them, tested them extensively and decided you didn't like them?

Being clear will keep people from making assumptions.

While it may make for some zingy buzz-words, it's quite myopic to believe just because a car doesn't autocross in ESP that it must be a "textbook car," "theory car," etc. For example, one can go back to the original bumpstop thread and see the pics of Lou's WC car with lower ride height, shorter shocks, bumpstops removed, LCA brackets, PHB lowering brackets, etc, etc. One could call cars like that or race-winning AI cars "theory cars," etc, but it's pretty insulting to those who built them, raced them and won in them.

Sam is Sam Jr. At least the Sam in this thread.

Welcome back Jon!

Nice editing of the original post to go off on your tangent that seems to have no bearing on what he was posting. He mentioned his favorite cars for multiple classes and you focused on ESP with an ultimate twist on AI. All I have to say is WTF? Here is the original quote that Jon shortened.

Guys.... Relax. This thread has been fine so far and I want it to stay that way. The statement eariler about agreeing to disagree is a good way to handle things.

Sam I will say the same thing everyone else has said, you educate without belittling people That and your integrity goes a long way with me and so many other's!

I know it's not easy to let people attack your integrity and let it go, but sometime's it's the best thing to do.

So hang in there buddy, your not alone here and never will be!

I will be calling you soon for a few thing's

What in the hell are you talking about? I focused on ESP because it's an F-Body class. This isn't BMWRRAX.com. Lonnie was refering to those F-Bodies that differ from Sam's setup as "theory cars" and "textbook cars." I just pointed out I don't think that's right since all those "theories" have been well proven on F-Bodies in the past in other classes.

From now on I could quote somebody's entire post if that would make you feel better. Doing that makes posts very cluttered and difficult for the reader to understand what the hell you're talking about. Whether or not Bob spends much time under his customers' BMW's or who had a broken torque arm or who had a front end appart or who sets up BMW's well has absolutely nothing to do with the counterpoint I was making. But you feel I should quote all that stuff anyway? Why, exactly? It's already written--scroll up if you want to read it again.

Edit: I tried it to make a point by quoting just Lonnies post and yours but didn't want to needlessly clutter the thread. It was ugly.

In any case, when you see a "..." in a quote (ever read the newspaper?) that means the writer is editing out something he felt wasn't germain to the discussion for the sake of brevity. If somebody is trying to pull the wool over the readers' eyes, he leaves out the "...". The "..." makes it clear it isn't a complete quote so those interested can scroll up an inch or two without making everybody else suffer.

OK, I was going to let that subject go, but it doesn't feel good to have my integrity questioned either.

I never called Sam a liar. Look at the thread he's talking about and see for yourself. I never questioned his word about what he saw at all.

The BS flag was thrown on his admitted guesses about what he saw. I said he was wrong about being able to tell spring rates as accurately as he thinks by just looking at the springs from underneath the car. That's a far, far, cry from calling somebody a liar.

Somebody telling the world you called him a liar, when in fact you did not, feels quite belittling in my book. If you don't think he does it, just do something stupid like lowering your PHB, shortening your shocks or removing your bumpstops and have the gall to say you like it. Your car will be belittled, your driving will be belittled, and your mother will wear combat boots (OK, that's an exaggeration in an effort to keep the thread lighthearted). See===> . But I'm not the only one in this thread who has been on the recieving end of his belittling.

I really don't mind people thinking I'm the bad guy. Getting accurate information out there, getting the truth out there is what's important to me.

That's the only reason I even entered this thread--asking for clarification on the PHB brackets. As an example of what he has "tried but didn't work" he lists the PHB brackets he made. Upon first read, many may come to one conclusion that leads him to ask for a "detailed report" on his experience with them. I thought it was important to ask if they ever got on his car or not. I have faith in Sam's integrity to clarify the issue and give us a detailed report on the extent of his experience with them on his car. I know he won't lie. I may think he's wrong about many things, but I don't think he's a liar.

It's the truth that matters. If it takes a "bad guy" to point it out, I'd rather be that bad guy than let bad info spread like wildfire over the internet.

It happened to me. I was told by him in a PHR Relo thread "I told you all you needed some bumpstop and that shock stops weren't right. I was universally told I was wrong. I wasn't. Broken shocks resulted". My bumpstops are removed and yet my shocks still work fine and are not broken after a year of track days (~15 day), including bumpy tracks like Limerock and Summit Point. I was also given a hard time about improved lap times that I mentioned. Was told the driver gained experience. True, every driver gains experience every time they get in the car. The car was definitely easier to drive, and the increase in lap times was not all driver experience from the end of the prior year to the start of the next year. (3+ seconds on a 1:00/lap track is hard to gain over the off-season/winter just by experience. The PHR Relo was able to be felt on the street, 5 minutes after I installed it.

Improving the car and driver in all aspects is what this board is about and is my goal! This includes driver techniques, engine, suspension, brakes, and safety. That's why we are all here, correct?

Forgot aerodynamics and weight removal!! :leaving:

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Jon! I WAS NOT going after YOU or anybody else for that matter, for what was posted in another thread ! I have not read this thread that you are reffering too! So THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON YOU Jon!

It is a GENERAL saying we have all heard before, and one I didn't follow as a younger man myself! I'm not keeping track of who is mad (or said this) at who on this board at one time or another! This is school crap, and I AM to old to be doing this myself!

This was a thread to thank Sam for his hard work, just like the one for YOU! There is notting else going on here, atleast not in my post!

I have been here for sometime now Jon, And I have stayed out of all that bickering without taking a side!

You started something with me, when there was no reason too!

Listen guys (all of you collectively, not just John and Jon or anyone specific).... We've proven time and time again that this board is made up of several groups who see some things differently (roadracers/autocrossers). Some things transfer between the two and I am very aware that an autocross car can be very fast around a race track. I'm also aware that some of the road race setups, that are also very fast around a race track, may not be driveable on an autocross course. Does this make either approach wrong? Not really, it just depends on what you're trying to do and how you wish to accomplish it.

We also have two other schools of though here. There are the guys who wish to do a more standard "Spring, Shock, Bar" combo (which is how my car is setup and works well for me with no muss, no fuss). And, we have the group who want to push the limits and relocate suspension pickup points, move things, cut, bend, modify things, change geometry, etc. These guys are paving a trail. You may not choose to follow it, you may not even want it on your map, but it's a trail none the less and just because it's new and different doesn't make it instantly wrong (I'm directing this to everyone, Sam, don't think I'm singling you out here...I'm not....but this is as good of a place as any for us to discuss the differences in the groups/approaches and try to come to terms with it).

The source of most of our problems is friction between these groups. Someone wants to try something new, or new to them and an arguement breaks out. Sometimes you just can't tell people things. I shortened my rear Koni's against the recommendations of some members here. No amount of argueing/advice was going to convince me not to try something new to me. I've now tried it and I think I might go back to a stock length shock. So, all the stress in that thread was for nothing and has been mostly forgotten. When people try new things, it's not a personal attack on anyone here. It's part of a learning curve. I pride myself in the fact that this board is like a college level course and people will try new things. If you want to go fast for minimal trouble and experimentation, we have setups for that. If you want to try something new and triumph or fail gloriously, go for it.

We have room for everyone.

We must learn to agree to disagree.....

My thoughts.....

Actually, it was a thread for Sam to get some things off his chest, but kudos certainly fit in there too.

You've touched on a bigger problem, though. While there is certainly some intended jabbing that gets mixed in with healthy disagreement, I think it's far too common to perceive an attack where none was intended.

I've been on both ends of that myself too often.

Most of us fit at least one, and many of us fit all, of the following descriptions:
- male
- gearhead
- competitor
- engineer

That means that many of us have all the social and communication skills of a tree stump. Personally, I'm all four, so I might even be a little behind the tree stump. If any of us were looking for a truly warm and fuzzy experience, we probably wouldn't be competitors anyway.

This might be where some people might say we need to become more sensitive to how others may feel. Personally, this is where I say we all need to be just a bit more thick-skinned.

BTW, I probably learn the most through disagreement. That may be through someone else proving me wrong, or it may be through being unable to prove someone else wrong (hmmm, maybe they have a point ...) or it may be through being forced to further clarify my thoughts to prove myself correct. It's all good, but expecting my fellow tree stumps to "deliver bad news in a good way [Mel Brooks]" is silly.

Wow, that sure didn't take long now did it.

I'm not going to rehash all the old stuff *again*. I never said I knew exactly the springs rates on the A-Sedan car. But you know what, I saw it looked at it, admitted that I didn't know the rates, then gave an estimate based on seeing a LOT of springs. Your choice to not beleive me, or even think I'm capable of a close estimate. Typical.

I never did install *my set on my car* because I wasn't happy with the range of adjustment and the mounting. So you can blast away (and I'm sure you will) before you read this part. I have worked a lot wtih lowered PHB's and roll-centers on solid axle cars. Whilst they may not be mine, I've learned a lot through other cars. I've managed to setup some cars that have won titles in other classes, even though I didn't own them. Aaron can attest to what I did to his Z06, and I don't own a Corvette. I found a fix to the issue I was after to fix. At the time nobody was making these, and from a business standpoint I could have sold lots of them. But I didn't because I didn't feel it was needed or right. MHO. I've worked with multiple Mustangs and the PHB height. And lowering the car also drops the roll center as well, which we've also done a lot of. And Lonnie tried it and I messed with it there as well, Ok?

For those that haven't broken shocks. Good for your. Fact is a number of people have broken shocks. You might not blow your engine a quart down on Wal-mart oil, but it's not smart and could very well happen (and has). Further I'll point out that in a few of those cases it wasn't even known the shocks were broken until they were fixed, and a broken damping can be very hard to track down. I've had broken shocks that I didn't realize for a long time, and clearly it happens to others since Smith took the time to not only mention it in his books, but to give a test to let the driver feel what a weak shock might feel like (and that's just weak, not broken). Of course those without adjustable shocks can't even run the test.

But I think this illustrates exactly what I was getting at when I composed this post. the BS flag was raised, again I've been told there is no way I can estimate a spring rate by looking at it (and I couldn't without a lot of experience looking at spring). You could paint street springs all the same color and I'd be able to tell you which was which because I'm familiar with looking at them, much like I can look at a 450 spring and know it's not a 650 or 800 and vice-versa.

It's become extremely tiresome, and the sad part is it stems from a very few persons.

Howdy,

Sam, just quit paying attention to the people that piss you off with their opinions.

Seriously. Its no skin off your nose if they wanna drop their panhards and proclaim to the world that its the best thing since sliced bread or whatever. So what if Joe Newby sees that and decides that the first modification he should make is to drop his panhard? Joe Newby is gonna quickly figure out that perhaps there are other (easier) ways to go faster quicker and some people just can't be told what works, they need to scrape their knucles themselves a few times.

When someone takes those alternate setup paths on a car that actually can, you know, _run anywhere near your times_, _then_ worry about it.

Mark

Yes, it was...and I didn't mean to rain on that. It seemed we were heading that way (maybe I'm just paranoid these days) and I figured it was as good of a place as any to discuss the various schools of thought on chasis setup and explain that all ideas are welcome here. I didn't mean to step on any toes, it truly wasn't my intent.

Unfortunately, perception is reality... and I make my living in a real world. If someone wants to disagree, that's fine. However with a lot of the attacks and mis-representations made about my thoughts (and some more just happened in another thread, which were all wrong fwiw), folks tend to believe what they see. I only ask for the chance to make my case on the phone, but feel at times I don't get that opprotunity after some of the things that are said get said.

As for the matter of how quick I am, well that seemingly doesn't hold water. I suddenly become the BEST DRIVER EVER and the car setup really isn't part of it, or doesn't matter because it's not real-world or oh-so different from track driving (none of which is true), but the perception is there. And in the past when I've had the gall to point to results to show something (for instance there is a fast ESP car in SoCal that I can use for reference vs. the other CA cars), I get attacked for being cocky and THEN I hear how you can't compare. Weird. I think if I beat Joe-Bob consistently, and Joe-Bob beats Billy-Bob consistently that you could infer something from that. Guess not.

Howdy,

Well then, there's only one way to fix this as I see it...

Sam, you'll just have to give me your car for the year next year.

Certainly nobody can claim _I_ drive particularly well... And if they doubt that, we can just show them the tape of my runs on the South course this year... :-)

Of course, to make it an accurate test, someone will have to build up and give me an F-body with a decoupled torque arm, lowered panhard, stiffer springs, etc. as well...

I am, in fact, willing to make this sacrifice.

:-)

Mark

Howdy,

Seriously... Sam, my advice is this...

Stop worrying quite so much about folks making bad setup decisions. I know, from personal experience, that you'll sell me parts you don't think will work. I _also_ know, from personal experience, how valuable it is to have someone I trust give me their honest feedback.

Keep offering that feedback, but if folks don't want to take it, its not worth getting pissed about. Like you say, you sell all the same parts as everyone else (essentially).

If the perception does shift to an F-body in ESP needing a decoupled torque arm, lowered panhard, extremely stiff springs, etc... Let folks know that you haven't found that to be the case, but if they wanna go that route, you'll be happy to sell 'em the parts and offer advice on making it all work the best it can.

This isn't anything different than you do now for the most part. On the phone & in person you do that currently. Online it isn't quite as clear.

In the end you make your living selling parts. One thing that differentiates you from other folks is that you're quite good at advising folks on what parts they could use to meet a goal, but that's a "nice" thing, not a required thing. If you've got some customers that don't want to take advantage of that... So what?

Mark

(edit) It just isn't worth the rise in blood pressure... If its pissing you off as much as it seems to be doing, just let it go. Folks in general will still follow your lead as long as your setups are at the top of the heap like they are now.

I fit in that category too! That probably does some up quite a few of us on here. Being more sensitive probably isn't going to happen. Thick skin will work, but sometimes its just a matter of HAVING to get FACTS on the table or support someone else before we shut up.

When you reference two people so well (might as well say their names) it's hard not to expect them to jump in here. And that's all I have to say about that. You have the fastest ESP 4th gen and you've changed a lot about SP F-bodies in recent years. Some of us believe it can be taken even further, but this is not the time or the place.


In the other thread I didn't receive a response to this:



My offer still stands.
robmeadway@gmail.com if you'd prefer to reach me via email.

Actually, I just type slow. I hadn't seen your post and wasn't responding to it, but you managed to sneak it in there before I clicked submit. I agree, though.

... and darn good advice it is, too

I know you weren't John. I'm sorry my response made it sound like all that was directed at you--I didn't mean for it to come out that way. It's just that what you said unintentionally made me even more angry about the way Sam started this thread, so I just used that as an example of why I wanted to set the record straight.

"The way Sam started this thread"

Hmm, I hit "new topic" and put down my thoughts. You saw my name, and "I've been thinking". What's wrong with that?

Thank you for clarifying the PHB bracket issue, Sam. When it was used as an example of something you "tried and didn't work" I thought it was only fair you include the details of how hard you tried. I don't see how that is unreasonable.

And if I reference them by name, I get blasted for starting something. I was citing some examples of incidents that upset me (there are many more). Was there a better way of doing it?

Meanwhile in a thread about Jason (that Mitch started) Jon couldn't resist dragging me in (by name) and making a bunch of claims that were false. I had responded earlier in the thread and simply said that I'm glad Mitch finally found out what some good shocks can do and now has some kind of data to back his talking up. Nothing wrong or inaccurate about that, and it's all I said. Didn't blast anyone. Call anyone stupid, or a liar, etc.

As for your offer.... I didn't see it because that was another thread that made me so ill I just quit reading it.

I will drive your car if presented with the opprotunity. I'm not going to waste my tires doing so when I have a perfectly good car of my own. I'll drive the car as it's setup, and in the form it's normally run. If you are worried about me getting a false impression on bad tires, I suggest you don't have bad tires on the car. All part of testing a package. Everything has to be in order.

I'm afraid if you want to see what 315's can do on your car, you'll have to hit up someone else, or buy some of your own.

You can bring springs and so on, but it's useless at a normal event. I'd suggest the Peru T&T if you really want to test something. I might be convinced to help you all anyway despite some of the crap that's gone down here. Nobody else here goes out of their way to travel to compete, or test. I'm not going to either. If you happen to be at an event I'm at, then great. I'm not going to upset my schedule to suit anyone but myself. I don't have to, I have a proven car. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.


My job as an Evolution instructor is to help. And at a school, I will do that for anyone as far as driving. And if it's a Challenge school AND they are driving well, I'll help with tuning advice. If you come to any other phase and/or aren't driving well, the car is secondary to me. I'll make mental notes for myself, and would share them after the day is over if asked. But that's not what I'm there for.

My job in real life is selling parts and setting up cars. I've always been very very free with my time and advice. But I've learned, as have others, that folks will often ask you something and when you tell them what you think they like to argue. Others will pick your brain and then go spend money for what you told them elsewhere. I'm always more inclined to help than not. But I have to pick and choose who I'm going to help first and how much, and I'm not going to tune (for free) cars that go completey against what I feel. Those folks will always be the people who support my business. They don't have to agree with me, but if they are buying parts I want the first opprotunity to do the job, and the opprotunity is all I ask. I haven't been getting that lately.

In short. You get to an Evo school I happen to be teaching for, and do it on good tires. I'll help you as best I can with the driving and if that's good we'll talk about the car a bit. You get to a Test and tune where I happen to be and I'll drive the car and make some comments (and my car would also likely be there as a comparison). But I'll only do what I can without cutting into what I'm there for (myself and customer support). And I'm not going to help your car go faster by putting any of my parts on it for fun. Your car, your test and tune, you are wanting my opinion. You set me up with the best stuff you have. I have to get myself my own parts, nobody lends me anything that can be used up like tires.

Sorry to have come off the wrong way I just mentioned that in case you wanted to use the same tires. We'll see if I can;t make it to a test and tune that you're at. I understand it's not your job to go out of the way. My question was if you would be able/interested in making a couple runs in my car if it were available at a test and tune. And it now seems like that is a possibility. I'm sorry if I come across as a jerk on the internet.

I really wasn't looking for 315's or asking for a hand out, just a way to make sure that a valid comparison could be made. And I've made efforts/deals to have the car on good rubber for tuning. I understand that you're busy and I don't expect you to go out of your way for something you don't stand to gain anything from.

Thanks.

Don't sweat the small stuff Sam and don't let others get you down.

Those of us who have taken the time to speak at length or meet with you know what you're all about and what kind of person you are.

I understand where you're coming from but life is too short to fight every battle big guy.