I've been thinking, and since this is general discussion.... Options

[Teutonic Speedra...]

Most of us fit at least one, and many of us fit all, of the following descriptions:
- male
- gearhead
- competitor
- engineer

That means that many of us have all the social and communication skills of a tree stump. Personally, I'm all four, so I might even be a little behind the tree stump.

I fit in that category too! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif) That probably does some up quite a few of us on here. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Being more sensitive probably isn't going to happen. Thick skin will work, but sometimes its just a matter of HAVING to get FACTS on the table or support someone else before we shut up. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[robz71lm7]

And I've been called a liar (just recently in a thread about the A-Sedan cars at the Runoffs).

Even some folks who are now selling "trick" shocks were on the phone with me as little as 2 years ago wanting to know why HD's weren't up to the job.

When you reference two people so well (might as well say their names) it's hard not to expect them to jump in here. And that's all I have to say about that. You have the fastest ESP 4th gen and you've changed a lot about SP F-bodies in recent years. Some of us believe it can be taken even further, but this is not the time or the place.


In the other thread I didn't receive a response to this:

QUOTE (Sam Strano @ Oct 28 2005, 13:48)
I've not driven *EVERY* setup out there, but about 99% of them.  And have enough experience that I can tell what's good (to my liking) or bad. 

Wanna drive mine next year? How does Columbus, OH or that test and tune Lonnie tells me about sound? I'll let you run 315's from your car on mine at the event so you can do a back to back comparison. Then you can say whatever you want about it and I'll shutup. I could even arrive with extra springs and tools to tune the car. Unfortunately I may not have money for an Evo school next year, but that remains to be seen. A nice test and tune would work out well and be a good comparison. Personally I'd love to have your input after driving my car.  I'd just hate for that to be at an Evo school where I'm usually on dead tires.

My offer still stands.
robmeadway@gmail.com if you'd prefer to reach me via email.

[sgarnett]

Actually, it was a thread for Sam to get some things off his chest, but kudos certainly fit in there too.

Yes, it was...and I didn't mean to rain on that. It seemed we were heading that way (maybe I'm just paranoid these days) and I figured it was as good of a place as any to discuss the various schools of thought on chasis setup and explain that all ideas are welcome here. I didn't mean to step on any toes, it truly wasn't my intent.

Actually, I just type slow. I hadn't seen your post and wasn't responding to it, but you managed to sneak it in there before I clicked submit. I agree, though.

[sgarnett]

Seriously... Sam, my advice is this...

... and darn good advice it is, too (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

[Jon A]

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Jon! I WAS NOT going after YOU or anybody else for that matter....

I know you weren't John. I'm sorry my response made it sound like all that was directed at you--I didn't mean for it to come out that way. It's just that what you said unintentionally made me even more angry about the way Sam started this thread, so I just used that as an example of why I wanted to set the record straight.

[Sam Strano]

"The way Sam started this thread"

Hmm, I hit "new topic" and put down my thoughts. You saw my name, and "I've been thinking". What's wrong with that?

[Jon A]

Thank you for clarifying the PHB bracket issue, Sam. When it was used as an example of something you "tried and didn't work" I thought it was only fair you include the details of how hard you tried. I don't see how that is unreasonable.

[Sam Strano]

And I've been called a liar (just recently in a thread about the A-Sedan cars at the Runoffs).

Even some folks who are now selling "trick" shocks were on the phone with me as little as 2 years ago wanting to know why HD's weren't up to the job.

When you reference two people so well (might as well say their names) it's hard not to expect them to jump in here. And that's all I have to say about that. You have the fastest ESP 4th gen and you've changed a lot about SP F-bodies in recent years. Some of us believe it can be taken even further, but this is not the time or the place.


In the other thread I didn't receive a response to this:

QUOTE (Sam Strano @ Oct 28 2005, 13:48)
I've not driven *EVERY* setup out there, but about 99% of them.  And have enough experience that I can tell what's good (to my liking) or bad. 

Wanna drive mine next year? How does Columbus, OH or that test and tune Lonnie tells me about sound? I'll let you run 315's from your car on mine at the event so you can do a back to back comparison. Then you can say whatever you want about it and I'll shutup. I could even arrive with extra springs and tools to tune the car. Unfortunately I may not have money for an Evo school next year, but that remains to be seen. A nice test and tune would work out well and be a good comparison. Personally I'd love to have your input after driving my car.  I'd just hate for that to be at an Evo school where I'm usually on dead tires.

My offer still stands.
robmeadway@gmail.com if you'd prefer to reach me via email.

And if I reference them by name, I get blasted for starting something. I was citing some examples of incidents that upset me (there are many more). Was there a better way of doing it?

Meanwhile in a thread about Jason (that Mitch started) Jon couldn't resist dragging me in (by name) and making a bunch of claims that were false. I had responded earlier in the thread and simply said that I'm glad Mitch finally found out what some good shocks can do and now has some kind of data to back his talking up. Nothing wrong or inaccurate about that, and it's all I said. Didn't blast anyone. Call anyone stupid, or a liar, etc.

As for your offer.... I didn't see it because that was another thread that made me so ill I just quit reading it.

I will drive your car if presented with the opprotunity. I'm not going to waste my tires doing so when I have a perfectly good car of my own. I'll drive the car as it's setup, and in the form it's normally run. If you are worried about me getting a false impression on bad tires, I suggest you don't have bad tires on the car. All part of testing a package. Everything has to be in order.

I'm afraid if you want to see what 315's can do on your car, you'll have to hit up someone else, or buy some of your own.

You can bring springs and so on, but it's useless at a normal event. I'd suggest the Peru T&T if you really want to test something. I might be convinced to help you all anyway despite some of the crap that's gone down here. Nobody else here goes out of their way to travel to compete, or test. I'm not going to either. If you happen to be at an event I'm at, then great. I'm not going to upset my schedule to suit anyone but myself. I don't have to, I have a proven car. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.


My job as an Evolution instructor is to help. And at a school, I will do that for anyone as far as driving. And if it's a Challenge school AND they are driving well, I'll help with tuning advice. If you come to any other phase and/or aren't driving well, the car is secondary to me. I'll make mental notes for myself, and would share them after the day is over if asked. But that's not what I'm there for.

My job in real life is selling parts and setting up cars. I've always been very very free with my time and advice. But I've learned, as have others, that folks will often ask you something and when you tell them what you think they like to argue. Others will pick your brain and then go spend money for what you told them elsewhere. I'm always more inclined to help than not. But I have to pick and choose who I'm going to help first and how much, and I'm not going to tune (for free) cars that go completey against what I feel. Those folks will always be the people who support my business. They don't have to agree with me, but if they are buying parts I want the first opprotunity to do the job, and the opprotunity is all I ask. I haven't been getting that lately.

In short. You get to an Evo school I happen to be teaching for, and do it on good tires. I'll help you as best I can with the driving and if that's good we'll talk about the car a bit. You get to a Test and tune where I happen to be and I'll drive the car and make some comments (and my car would also likely be there as a comparison). But I'll only do what I can without cutting into what I'm there for (myself and customer support). And I'm not going to help your car go faster by putting any of my parts on it for fun. Your car, your test and tune, you are wanting my opinion. You set me up with the best stuff you have. I have to get myself my own parts, nobody lends me anything that can be used up like tires.

[robz71lm7]

Sorry to have come off the wrong way I just mentioned that in case you wanted to use the same tires. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) We'll see if I can;t make it to a test and tune that you're at. I understand it's not your job to go out of the way. My question was if you would be able/interested in making a couple runs in my car if it were available at a test and tune. And it now seems like that is a possibility. I'm sorry if I come across as a jerk on the internet.

I really wasn't looking for 315's or asking for a hand out, just a way to make sure that a valid comparison could be made. And I've made efforts/deals to have the car on good rubber for tuning. I understand that you're busy and I don't expect you to go out of your way for something you don't stand to gain anything from.

Thanks. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

[Racer X]

Don't sweat the small stuff Sam and don't let others get you down.

Those of us who have taken the time to speak at length or meet with you know what you're all about and what kind of person you are.

I understand where you're coming from but life is too short to fight every battle big guy.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mitchntx]

Meanwhile in a thread about Jason (that Mitch started) Jon couldn't resist dragging me in (by name) and making a bunch of claims that were false.

And you did the exact same thing about me in a thread I had no involvement in. Why?

If you expect a certain amount of respect from people and expect a certain amount of decorum, maybe you should practice what you so desire.

I vowed to leave you the hell alone, sit down and shut up. I did just that.

But you can't take your own advice and give it a rest ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

And before you go off again, the thread where you posted that had zero to do with anything you have ever told me. I had read a thread in the Ax section about spring rates and made a VERY loose comment about the spring rates I chose were way more than what the masses would even consider.

I don't know what about that comment I need to rest ...

Not everything on the internet concerning F-Body handling is about you, Sam.

This in no way should reflect negatively on what you, Sam have accomplished. Kudos to you, Sam for doing what you've done in the arena you have chosen.

You asked me to give it a rest and I am asking you to do the same thing.

Fair enough?

This post has been edited by mitchntx: Nov 15 2005, 10:05 PM

[jpastorius]

I am proud to be able to call Sammy a friend. There is not a better person in this sport than him. Five years ago he told me to buck the trend in ES and find a 93 hardtop. Everyone at the time said the 93 was no match for the 91-92...they were wrong. I did not listen to him about the big front bar...he was right and I paid the price. I wish I had listened to him when he offered the original Barney to me....it has taken me over 3 years to find another one.

I would suggest if you have an issue with something, give the guy a call. The only warning...put time aside for the call (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) When I first called about the 1LE, I think we talked (okay, I listened) for 2 hours on the basics. Even when I found the car, he spent time on the phone telling me what questions to ask and what to look for. When people refer to the car as Barney or Barney 2, I just get a grin and can only wish.

Like I said, there is not a better person in this sport. If you have issues with his take on things, pick up the phone.

[Unbalanced Engin...]

Hey Sam,

I just wanted to clarify a few things. I've never said that the setup you use can't be fast. It certainly can be as I've said. I just happen to belive that there is a faster setup. Don't take things so personally. A LOT of stuff on this board gets said about me and/or my setup that I could certainly take offense to, but I just let it slide. Just as an example (not intended to upset, just point out how things can be taken out of context and/or blown up).

1. The T2R. How many ran the T2R before I showed up? Very few. How many even realized how important a LSD that works is to the handling as well as the traction of the car? Next to none.

I could take offense at this since I (along with a few others) help Torsen test the beta version of the T2R and before that the pre-loaded version that never saw production. Before that I ran a beta to the HD that was produced before the SS was released. At that point everyone was still singing the praises of the Auburn Off-Road...

2. Large front swaybars as well as "intermediate" rear bars in combination. Before me everyone used a 32mm front bar. Some stayed 19, some went 21 rear. A very few who were never fast went to big bars at both ends. I ran a 35/21 combo first (and did it before SLP did, starting in late '99).

I have always run larger bars, first the 32mm Solid Addco (in '97) with the 21mm GM and then later with the 24mm GM. Now I'm running the 35mm you had Addco make up front since the rate is similar but saves a few lbs (glad you had this one made! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) )

3. Started the education on shock valving... Before me you had HD's and SLP's and Koni's. Only the Koni's capable of damping the spring most of us run, but most folks were cheap, didn't know any better, or fell for a sales pitch that HD's are just fine. Even some folks who are now selling "trick" shocks were on the phone with me as little as 2 years ago wanting to know why HD's weren't up to the job.

Again this could be construed to mean that I called you asking why the HD's weren't up to the task since I am now selling "trick" shocks. I haven't ever run HD's so I could jump up and say HEY THAT ISN'T ME!!!!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

4. Showed that removal of the rear bumpstops can cause shock failure, and proved it more than once. And I stuck with it despite being shouted down a few times....

Since I have been one of those who has said that I don't like seting a car up to use bump stops because it is too hard to balance the car front to rear with chaning bump stop rate, I could take offense here too....

Here's an example.... I made drop PHB brackets way back in '99-2000. In an effort to calm the tail of the cars (and folks on this board have seen them, they aren't vaporware). While messing with designs to get the strength I wanted/need from the, I stumbled across a few things that were at the time outside the box ideas that did the job I was seeking. So the re-engineering of the wheel I was going to do, wasn't necessary IMHO. Some think it is, and that's fine.

Now this again could be construed as aimed at me. Did I jump up and down about how I "invented" PHR brackets back in late '98??? I am of course one of the "some" that thinks they are faster. Note FASTER, not the ONLY way to go fast. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I guess all I'm saying Sam is just ease back a little and take everything with a grain of salt. A lot of things that seem like they are angry or aimed at you may not be. When people like what you've done for them they'll let others know (as many have done for you here). Just because someone tries something that you recomend against, doesn't mean that they don't value your time or opinion. Some people like to (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) for themselves (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Jason S.

Edited for spelling (which I really suck at)

This post has been edited by Unbalanced Engineering: Nov 15 2005, 10:43 PM

[Formula WS6]

Sam,

You, your mom, and your dad have helped me greatly and I appreciate that to no end. Not just with my two cars either but with my customers cars as well. I just wish I did more business so I could call more often. I listened to you on my 96 and everything has worked so far(still haven't done the clutch. its soon I promise) even though I knew from the start that it was a compromise. Its worked very well for me though and Im up to 70+k miles on the setup. Its getting soft so changes will be made again soon i hope.

anyway chin up and don't stop spending time with customers. My boss gets pissed I spend too much time as well. the way I figure it im dealing with somsones $50k car talking about $10k worth of work. the customer really needs to know the consequences of their purchase. you will not find any stage kits availible from me. maybe one day people will realize theres no need to pigeon hole everyone into stages to acheive their goals. theres always more than one way to go fast even around a track.

This post has been edited by Formula WS6: Nov 15 2005, 10:47 PM

[rmackintosh]

Nice post Jason,

Like I have said guys....keep it off the personal side and all is well....

I have said a THOUSAND times I have used BOTH Sam and Jason, and will continue to do so....both are a wealth of knowledge in my book....just gotta know how each person's set up applies TO MY set up and what I WANT TO DO...

Half the shocks on my car are Sam's and half are Jasons

All the bars on my car are Sam's (although with a adjustable kit on the rear from Jason)

PHB from Sam

PHB Lowering kit from Jason

HEY, I WANT TO THANK BOTH OF YOU RIGHT HERE AND NOW...... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[TOO Z MAXX]

Nice post Jason,

Like I have said guys....keep it off the personal side and all is well....

I have said a THOUSAND times I have used BOTH Sam and Jason, and will continue to do so....both are a wealth of knowledge in my book....just gotta know how each person's set up applies TO MY set up and what I WANT TO DO...

Half the shocks on my car are Sam's and half are Jasons

All the bars on my car are Sam's (although with a adjustable kit on the rear from Jason)

PHB from Sam

PHB Lowering kit from Jason

HEY, I WANT TO THANK BOTH OF YOU RIGHT HERE AND NOW...... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Thats pretty much how my set up is going. I just received my Strano bars and Panhard rod last week. I am also purchasing a UETA. I am not sure about shocks and springs but I know I will be contacting these guys in January to decide.
I have never talk to or met Sam but I do read most of his posts because of the info I can get. Sam I am sure their are a lot of guys just like me whom you never met but listen to what you have to say, and eventually go with your parts and ideas.

[Sam Strano]

Jason my friend, I have NO issue with you here. None.

For the record.... The T2R was tested by folks but very few knew of it, or could get it. I not only supplied it (sold 90 in the last two years), but stood up and sung the praises of it. And note that I didn't say NOBODY had one, but very few. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I went out of my way to FIND a way to purchase them.

We'll have to differ on the bar thing. I don't see 32's as large (since all SS's and 1LE's had them always), and while I see 21 as moderate I think it's not a good pairing with a 32 front. Much like I don't particularly like the 35/25 (or 24) rear bars in concert in MOST cases. You ran moderate fronts, with moderate to large rears. Now you run large bars at both ends, likely due to the other things you have done and I don't.

I didn't say the shock guy was you did I????? Others have called and asked similar things too. But didn't you have Bilstein's on the car with Pro-kits at some point, and clearly that must have happened as you took it to mean you specifically, and I wasn't really referring to you. For that matter I noticed LG started selling "revalves" soon after I did too.

You can like having no stops. You shouldn't take offense. I didn't say it couldn't work, I simply meant the way some went about it with the package it would break shocks. I wasn't wrong about that, and again, never even meant you.

The PHB bracket thing. I wouldn't say was aimed at you. I was simply stating that the idea isn't new. And I had considered it (and tried it elsewhere). And I think if you read the quote I wrote and you used in your post, and do it realizing there was nothing intended as a cut, you'll see where I'm coming from.

Jason and I can disagree and do it without bloodshed, that's cool, and many times I've said that a stiff car can be fast as well. I'm not any more close minded than he is. But because I'm running more convention setup, that's the assumption which is why I mentioned some of the things I did, like my PHB bracket project. Sadly, it's the ASSumptions that get in the way. Jason and I have spoken before and knew right were the other was coming from. And when that is known it makes things easier to deal with. And frankly speaking, I don't seem to have ANY issues with anyone on this board who I've conversed with in person about these subjects. Randy, Jason, Sean, Kevin, the list goes on. The only issues are from those who like to take what I said out of context, twist it and then add the idea that I think I'm a GOD to the top of it all.
The internet can suck, and that's the reason why.

In the end I'm just fed up. I'm attacked, my business can ebb and flow based on some internet hounds half-baked scheme (not anyone here), I'm in the middle of a break-up and moving, winter is setting in. I've just had it up to here (imagine a 6'1" guy with his hand WAY up), and I've reached my breaking point. I censor myself quite often and haven't ever said what I truly thought. I don't really want to, but it's hard when I always the one who's wrong, supposedly.

I didn't start this for pity. I did it to vent, and some of best friends are here, and it also related to some things that stem from this board. I appreciate the kind responses. As for the others, it is amazing how peaceful it is around here sometimes, even when I'm here.

[Sam Strano]

Meanwhile in a thread about Jason (that Mitch started) Jon couldn't resist dragging me in (by name) and making a bunch of claims that were false.

And you did the exact same thing about me in a thread I had no involvement in. Why?

Can you show me where, in what thread? If you want, if not I'll let it rest. I may have, but I'd like to see where I did it. There's been so much going on I can't honestly recall doing it.

BTW I said, and publicly said, that I was GLAD for you. You didn't get anything from me, and we've battled plenty. What part of GLAD for you was so bad. I can't see anything so evil about that.

[GM01SS]

Sam...................I am a repeat customer and consider you a great source of knowledge when it comes to our beloved f-body's!

You have helped me on a number of occasions and never tried to "sell" me something I did not need or desire.

I consider you a "friend" even though we have never met.

I hope the personal issues get resolved, and wish you and your Company good luck.

As for the staff @ Strano's............What can I say, when I needed parts this summer and you were "under the weather" Aryln made sure they went out the same day............That is customer service.

Fight the good fight, I am a beliver in " What goes around Comes around "

Gary

[robz71lm7]

Some of you may think I hate Sam. I'll just add I ordered a set of Bilsteins for my truck from Arlyn WHILE Sam and I were disagreeing on the lowered panhard brackets in my thread. Not a whole lot of money, but I like to support Sam when I can or when it's something he will sell me.

I had Sam call me up one day at home out of the blue when he saw me posting about diff problems. He spent over an hour on the phone with me telling me how I could get a take off torsen in the mean time and install it myself. When it came time for a T2R I came back to him. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

I'm really hoping to be able to show up with my car at 100% next year and get Sam's input on it.