I have a line on a project car, to build or not to build, that is the question Options

[trackbird]

I was at a friends house yesterday (440 miles from home) to look at a 3rd gen shell that I can get for a great price. It's not a real desirable car for anything other than a track car. Let me try to explain (since it was dark and we were using a flashlight, I didn't think to try taking pics).

It's a '84-ish Berlinetta. It has the 85 mph speedo with the kmh scale on the other side (the double needle setup). It has idiot lights for temp, oil presure and voltage. The seats are blue vinyl and ripped. The car was purchased for the 6,000 mile goodwrench 350 that was in it, the engine and the automatic are gone (not that I care about the auto, there aren't many things that are worse than an early 700R-4). The body is straight and seem solid, there is slight damage to the fender lip on the front drivers side 1/4 panel. The rubber nose is chipped up (looks like it hit something and popped the paint off), but it's otherwise solid and not torn up. It has a rear and all the suspension is there. Some of the wiring under the hood is stripped and wrapped in electrical tape (I was told that was the distributor wiring), the Y-pipe is still in the car, manifolds are in the hatch, etc.

The bottom line is that this is a fairly straight body in an unloveable car (there is no saving that interior) and it's a hardtop. I'd be starting from scratch, gutting the interior, wiring the car, installing a manual (I've done 5 and 6 speed swaps already), getting it caged, building a motor, etc. The problem is, it's hard to decide to put a 305 back in it since I'll be building from scratch, same for a 5 speed. It's not much more to put a 6 speed in there while I'm already doing it. That would rule out CMC, but maybe I just need a track car anyway, I'll find a class for it later and just do HPDE stuff for a while.

So, do I drag this heap home and likely put $12,000 in it or go buy something that runs?

[Shortcutsleeping]

Kevin,

It is really simple. There are two pairs of questions.

Do you want to build?
Do you want to race?

Can you spend a little money each month?
Can you spend a bunch of money right now?


Project cars (especially from scratch) take piles of money and months/years of time. Some folks really LIKE that kinda fabrication/build stuff and, for them, building it is half the fun. If you are in that group then building is an option.

If you want to be on the track soon, buy a completed, running car. It *WILL* cost you less than building even knowing you will have to un-f#ck some stuff that you don't like the way the previous owner/builder did.

The money part is obvious, I think decent cmc cars go for 8-10k.

Now, not that you asked, but since I'm on my soapbox anyway I'll speak for a moment about car classifications. If you build something to follow NO rules, then it's appeal will be limited should you ever want to get rid of it. Additionally, if you go roadracing with it, you won't really have anyone to play with because you will be in a stupidfast class with an un-optimized car. Give a long thought to where you want to be in five years and work towards that. CMC looks like a helluva fun class and altho your cmc car will be slow in hpde situations, it will help you be a better driver to learn in a momentum car and then when your hpde buddies are still talking about the ferrari they passed this one time at band camp, you can be actually running wheeltowheel in a competitive car in a great series. Ditto for IT classes in SCCA. The cars are slow in hpde format, but running wheel2wheel is the cake, icing, and total hottie bikini girl that jumps out of the cake.

For reference = http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm

Hope to see you at the track sometime, somewhere!!

Costas
cars and such...

[Rob Hood]

As much as I would love to do the same thing (find a shell and build a racecar), I'd have to make sure I knew which class I was going into beforehand. I suppose you could build it to CMC spec and just use it in HPDEs until you got ready to move up (which I'd thought about myself), and that may be the best long-term plan if CMC is where you want to be.

If your heart's set on CMC, I'd look at somebody's CMC car that's for sale. I've already seen some in the last few months that are under $12k for a turnkey vehicle. Plus, buying a car that's 90% (or even 80%) ready to race puts you on track sooner, rather than spending six months to a year building the car.

OTOH, if you just have to get dirty and love taking things apart, go for it! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[trackbird]

My friend is the assistant race director of the AV8SS. So, I expect I'd be headed that way at some point. If that's the case, I can build nearly anything I want and still be legal (within reason, but they are pretty open with rules). I'd have to watch the cage and a few things, but other than that, it's a displacement/rpm based restrictor class. And, it will take piles of money to run in, but I might just do a few events a year.

I built my 1989 Formula from scratch (out of my street car), got it "done", got mad and sold it all in pieces (and took a beating on it). I probably had $30,000 in that car (I had receipts and it was close to that) and I got about $10,000 out of the parts (give or take). I've been down that road once and that's my debate this time. Do I do it again?

[slowcamaro]

Whats the car going to cost? If your converting to manual and going back to a 305...Id probably hold off for a car that already has at least one or the other. 3rd gens are cheap. dirt cheap.

I bought mine running. 76k miles. Straight...though the paint was shit for 700 bucks and I paid too much.

[SS2win]

Half the fun for me is building but after the last project (a 72 jimmy I started in 1996 - not totally finished) I lean toward finding someone's project that they've lost interest in. a cheap body is alway a good starting point. Just think about the time you'll drop in it.

[mitchntx]

So, do I drag this heap home and likely put $12,000 in it or go buy something that runs?

Kevin ... trust me on this ... for $12K you can build a helluva 4th gen LT1 car.

For 12K, Glenn and I will build you a nice CMC legal 94 Formula and deliver it.

[CMC #37]

I see Pat Stone is selling my CMC 3rd gen for $8500.00 and it is better equipped than the Atlantic Champion 3rd gen priced at $10k. My old car has new black paint now and a brand new motor that broke in nice. That's where the smart money is in fun per $.

[bsim]

I hate it (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) but I'm with Mitch. As much as I curse my 4th gen when working on it, I'd never want to go back to a 305 (for CMC). Reason being that although you save some $$ upfront, if I ever blow my LT1, I can always pick one up a yard and throw it in. If it's down on stock power because it's tired, more than likely I'll still be within spitting distance of the limit. A 305 OTOH usually needs "massaging" to get near the limits.

On the CMC board is a "pre" race car for roughly 3k. Figure you get this 3rd gen for $500. What's a motor and trans gonna cost? You could end up pretty close to the cost of the 4th gen when you're all done.

But since you aren't in a hurry, why not wait for the right one at the right price? I know Kevin Hall's 3rd gen CMC car went for less than the roughly $6k he wanted for it, and it was race ready!

Gotta be patient for those deals though - he had to get rid of it as he was leaving for SCarolina 2 days later.

This post has been edited by bsim: Nov 27 2006, 03:42 AM

[firehawkclone]

So, do I drag this heap home and likely put $12,000 in it or go buy something that runs?

Kevin ... trust me on this ... for $12K you can build a helluva 4th gen LT1 car.

For 12K, Glenn and I will build you a nice CMC legal 94 Formula and deliver it.

I'm with Mitch

I know you don't want a 93/97 but it is the better/more competitive car. And think about this, you could run 2 NASA classes......

CMC
16" wheels
restrictor
ls1 brakes

CMC2
17 wheels
no restrictor, but maybe down on power.
could get away with ls1 brakes

[trackbird]

Whats the car going to cost?

Honestly? A 6 pack and gas to drag it to Ohio. And the 6 pack is because I'm just a nice guy and these are friends. I can have the car for free, I just have to go get it (440 miles away, but I was there yesterday and I get there from time to time. I have friends with SUV's and friends with trailers, so it will cose me fuel, and possibly another 6 pack or so).

[nape]

Don't even think about AV8SS unless you're thinking about making it an AI car as well. And if you're thinking about making it an AI car, add 50% more to that $12k figure unless you're a super deal hunter then be prepared to devote the next 4 months of your life getting it ready for the season.

Honestly, if we had the CMC car counts up here, I would've built for CMC.

Another option, if you just want to run track days and not have the overhead, rent a car. There are quite a few guys doing that up here (although they're Mudstains). Mid Coast Performance has one, their building 1 or 2 CMC2 cars, and they're building a GTO to run AI. Robin Burnett has the black SN95 that Aaron Bambach is driving. I've thought about putting together a rental CMC f-body but I don't have the rig/space yet.

[Stang Killer]

Thought about building a car for CMC-X? Seems like it would be a better decision becuase with the LS1, it would allow room to grow with the car for a cheaper price. For example, if you step up to AI all you would need is basic bolt ons to be competitive powerwise. For AIX heads and cam and your in the game. Only down side is the oil control in an LS1.

[marka]

Howdy,

Kevin, I have $18k into a "free" car that I'm building for CP autox, and its still in piles around the house & I haven't yet bought anything for it with an electrical wire or fluid hose attached (i.e. no plumbing, electrical, or driver controls).

I don't regret doing that, as I've learned a _lot_ building the car this far and eventually will probably finish it. The next time I lose my mind, it'll go faster thanks to everything we learned on this car just so far.

Sounds to me like you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want to race? Then pick a class and look for a good to very good used car for sale. Only fix stuff that bothers you safety wise and run it for a year then decide where to go. As long as you pick your class reasonably well, you won't lose a ton of money if you don't wad the car up badly even if you decide its not for you.

On the other hand, do you want to have a fast car that's exactly what you want and will be satisfied impressing the squids at track days? Then build it. As you've already learned, you'll lose your shirt financially but it sounds like you have the luxury for that to not necessarily be your primary concern if you don't want it to be.

I'll say this though as a former racer... There are two categories of people. Racers and Everyone else. You can be totally happy in the "Everyone else" camp, as long as you don't need to know that you're fast.

Mark
(edit: autox counts as "racers" if you read the rulebook before you modify your car... :-)

This post has been edited by marka: Nov 27 2006, 04:42 AM

[mitchntx]

I hate it (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) but I'm with Mitch

That must've really hurt ....

[trackbird]

After putting a fortune into my last project and getting rid of it as it was almost done (the headers and oil pan were both modified to clear and didn't, I got mad and sold the whole car.....dumb, I know).

I'm trying to stay away from 4th gens because I really don't like them very well (???). The front hub bearings, the extra electronics, abs to keep or remove, etc. This car would be a "gut it and wire it from scratch" deal. I was an Avoinics technician in a previous life and don't see that as being much of an issue.

I'm probably still better off to buy something that runs/is partially finished.

[BigEnos]

Candidate for Quote of the Year:

when your hpde buddies are still talking about the ferrari they passed this one time at band camp,

[AndyJ]

Our hobby is all about fun and what you like. I talked to an ORR buddy of mine recently who is sinking a pile o' dough into an Unlimited car. I questioned the investment(??) vs. buying a near-ready car like an old NASCAR or Busch car-- they are readily available and run our Unlimited ORR class very well.

He said " It would always be someone else's car."

End of our discussion right there.

[trackbird]

Oddly Andy, this car had the same crate motor in it that yours did and it also had 6,000 miles on it. Seemed like an odd coincidence, but this one comes without the motor.....(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[BumpaD_Z28]

For me half the fun is in the project....

But coming form a 3rd gen guy, don't you think a 82-92 Z28 or even a 89-92 RS would be a better start ??? the Berlinetta was such the red headed step child....

Couldn't you use the disc brake rear end in any 89-up car ?

Wouldn't the sway bars stay if you got a Z with the 36/21 or 24 combo ???

Maybe it's just me that hates the Berlinetta (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)