Hello everyone,

Just thought I would introduce myself. I've been lurking here off and on for years, every time I got tempted to buy my fathers Z28. He ended up making me an offer I couldn't refuse so as of this weekend I'm now the proud owner of a black '93 Z28 with 40k on the odometer. It's basically stock with the exception of a Moroso CAI and Hurst shifter.

The current plan is to catch up on the maintenance and take it to a track day August 31st (Bertil Roos - Performance Driving Clinic up at Pocono). I'd love to hear anyone experiences with Roos? Did a search and didn't find much. I'm planning to flush the brake fluid and do other maintenance items people have suggested here in past pre- track postings but I'm waffling on the brake pads. I read the suggestions, I've had Hawk pads on a street car in the past and the brake squeal drove me nuts. Any chance the stock pads will suffice for the first track outing? or am I dreaming? Other suspension and engine mods will have to wait until I finish other projects.

Dan

I don't know your track, but unless it has a reputation for being easy on brakes, I wouldn't go out with stock pads. I did it once...once. I fried the stock pads so bad, I had almost no brakes on the way home. The track I drove was known to be pretty hard on brakes. I tried to be nice to the brakes, but it didn't help. There are many options for pads and Hawk is only one. Yes, race pads dust and squeak much more than street pads do. You might consider getting a set of track pads and rotors. Put them on either the night before your track day or when you arrive at the track, switch back after the event. This way, you don't have to drive the dusty noisey pads on the street and you don't have to trash your street pads on the track.

With the stock LT1 brakes, yeah I would run some better pads big time.

Oh, and welcome to the board!

which pocono course. where do you live

third ditto on NOT using the stock pads. Since this car is about 18 years old, i would highly recommend going through the entire brake system before tracking it. Include at a minimum a complete brake fluid change. maybe your dad kept up with this kind of stuff, but still recommened.

this is not a cut to your car...the LT1 brakes are barely adequate for street use, much less track use. Even with some Hawk upgrades, take it easy at first.

Good luck and enjoy your new toy.

bock

I tracked my ''96 street car a few times before I did the Bob bishop C5 kit...one of his first BTW.

I agree with the others, the LT1 year brakes are not very good. If you take good care of them you can make an event or two, but you will definitley want to upgrade those calipers to something much better pretty soon.

My CMC car has just upgrades to LS1 year brakes with great pads and they are very good.

James

Thanks for the replies, I figured I'd be pushing it with the stock brakes. I guess I'll go with the swapping out pads and rotors routine.

I'm planning on going through everything on the car especially the brakes. The car wasn't neglected but it could use some refreshing. Up until last year he still had the original tires on it. I talked him into changing them for safety sake.

I think the paperwork said Pocono North track? I've never actually been there so I'm not sure which is which? They all use part of the tri-oval right?. I live in Downingtown, PA.

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?sho...mp;#entry153229

And the other half


http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=14325

Thanks for the links but I'm going to have to wait on such things. My a$$ is already in a blender with the wife for all the money I'm spending on another project and now money needs to go into the Z28 to get it registered, catch up on maintenance, and up to par for the track day. It's only money right

VISA is a very good sponsor for these kinds of things.

They don't require you to run sponsor decals or anything ....

Pocono North course is run in a clockwise direction (opposite direction of Nascar) using part of the front straight, Turn 3 and a good part of the Turn2-3 straight before a dive into the infield. The infield has a variety of basically flat turns connected by relatively short straights. The last two turns prior to re-entry to the main course are most critical to maintaining momentum and good lap times. Braking for the dive into the infield section is the most demanding on brakes as you go from the highest speed of the lap down to a fairly moderate speed entering the infield. There are also two moderately heavy braking zones on the infield along with several areas of light braking. For a heavy car like the Z-28, stock pads will NOT hold up.

Did the Bertil Roos Open wheel school some years ago and was pleased with both the classroom and the on track instruction. Don't know if they use the same procedures for their HPDE program, but if so, you can expect good coaching. If this is your first HPDE event, just work on hitting your marks exactly and being as smooth as possible. This pays the most rewards both in terms of skill building and in consistent lap times- especially on this course. Have fun!

Thanks for the track explanation jensend, They say it's the same instructors from their open wheel school so we'll see. Should be fun either way. I've always wanted to do the open wheel school but don't know if I'll fit (6'9"), I was going to see if they would let me try and squeeze into one while I'm there.

400 bucks for a C5 system is very hard to beat. It will be $800-1000 plus if you try to replicate it new. this will give you a bunch of options for pads and rotors too. Might be too good to pass on knowing that you will eventually need brakes. Looks cool too...larger rotor. Might be a tight fit on the stock wheels.

The LS1 system (from 98 to 2002 Fbody) can usually be found at the junkyard for $300-400, and it is a GREAT upgrade for the LT1 fbody. Limited rotor and pad combos, but it keeps you in class for a number of different type competitions. Almost as good as the C5 conversion. A true "bolt-on" swap.

Good luck!

bock

The C5 setup would be nice, but I would need to buy new rims and tires so the cost goes up quite a bit...although I could always hang on to them for a later date...maybe in a few months

I have a LS1 setup available...

LS1 f-body 12" slotted rotors (16" wheel OK obviously)
C5 'vette calipers - rebuilt, "Corvette" shaved off, then painted red.
Pad abutment brackets for f-body, also painted red.
Hawk HPS pads.
Russel braided stainless steel lines (front only)

This whole setup has right at 2000 miles on it since I rebuilt the calipers and put new rotors on it.

Looking for $200 for that.

The pads are great street pads, but would likely not hold up to a HPDE... but they're way better than a stock pad!

I'm up in Danville / Bloomsburg...

Thanks Eskimo, but now I'm confused? I thought one needed the trackbrackets (or some variant) to mount C5 calipers on an LT1, and that combo put you in the 17" wheel range? Or are the trackbrackets simply to be able to run the larger diameter C5 rotors? So you can mount the C5 calipers on the LT1 spindles, using LS1 rotors, and still fit under stock 16s? Or am I missing something?

My setup is basically a re-built stock LS1 setup with some minor enhancements. C5 calipers and LS1 f-body calipers are (basically, bear with me guys) dimensionally the same.

If you mount a C5/LS1 f-body caliper to a LS1 spindle, you use 12" rotors, and are OK with 16" wheels.
If you mount a C5/LS1 f-body caliper to a LS1 spindle AND use the trackbrackets, you use 13" rotors, and are OK with 17" wheels.

I can't speak to mounting the LS1/C5 stuff on a LT1 spindle... IIRC you just cut some kind of ear off the spindle?

I would think the C5 caliper's smaller piston with the larger (for a LT1 guy) 12" rotor would keep a good brake bias though?

The brake bias stays the same with the C5 kit and the LS1 brake parts (using the C5 caliper and LS1 rotor will shift brake bias to the rear). The C5 uses a larger rotor (more leverage) and smaller pistons (less clamping force for a given pressure input). So, either is a direct swap onto your car. The LS1 setup is a HUGE upgrade over the completely inadequate LT1 brakes. The C5 setup is a very signifigant upgrade over the LS1 brakes.

The LS1 setup is "spindle and all" and you just pop the balljoints and install the spindle, rotors, brakes and everything, bleed the brakes and you're ready to go.

The C5 setup works on either the LS1 or the LT1 spindles. You do some trimming on the spindle and bolt a bracket onto the spindle assembly (with 4 very strong bolts) and swap rotors and add the Corvette calipers and hardware.

Neither is difficult. C5/C6 brakes require 17" wheels. LS1 brakes fit under 16" wheels. If you have 16" wheels, the choice is easy (for now, once you upgrade that will change). Either is a much better idea than running LT1 brakes.

Thank you both for the clarification, I think I have it straight now. My problem is limited time and funds before the track day. This will likely be the one and only track outing for the year (have to find a way to fix that for next year). So unless some money falls in my lap in the next couple weeks (I try to avoid VISA sponsorship), I'm thinking that getting a set of higher temp pads (and new rotors) that I can swap in and out for the track makes the most sense.

I found this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/98-02-LS1-C...bd#ht_993wt_722 this is from a well known parts house in FL. Your still looking at $500 when everything is said and done. Brakes, shipping, rebuild, pads,SS lines( non coated), fluid, and alignment which you have to do anyway.

Another tempting option...You guys will have me sleeping on the couch in no time...

And why should you be "special"?

I know you are gathering info so I should throw this in just so we have mentioned it. The LS1/junkyard retro requires some caution to make sure the donor was not hit in the front. This seems like a no brainer, but the new spindles can be bent, even slightly, which will make it impossible to align. It is virtually impossible to tell by just looking at them.

Just a caution. When I did this years ago, I didn't check...but I got lucky.

bock

Kevin, I don't disagree that the C5 calipers put onto a LS1 car with the stock 12" rotors would put more bias to the rear.

But since he's (LT1) going from the 11" rotor to a 12" rotor, wouldn't using the C5 calipers on that keep the brake bias the same as OEM?

I know it's a small detail, but...

So basically if some money should fall into my lap, swapping out the front brakes (to LS1 at the very least) should be top on my list of mods before the track outing? And LS1 brakes will definitely fit under stock '93 16" wheels?

Just a FYI............The local BMW Club ( Genesee Valley Chapter BMW CCA) offers a $100.00 discount to your FIRST track event with us. Watkins Glen International is a top rate track, guarnteed to to lead to the pipe (LOL). We offer top rate instructors, (most have been thru our Instructor Traning Seminar).

If you have a interest send me a email and I can get you in touch with the website and events that we have left this year.

Welcome to both the site and the Addiction!!!!!!!!!!!


Gary

I would agree with this statement. The mod will benefit you both street and track. It is relatively cheap and durable. It is reverseable, not that you would want to reverse it.

It may not be sexy, but it is functional and highly recommended for tracking.

You may want to track the car with the LT1 brakes first just so you can see and feel the major difference when you do upgrade. But I feel assured that you will notice it immediately even on the street.

By the way, you mentioned a wife related to the dollar investment for this. Wives tend to like items on cars that slow them down, or add to the safety factor...this does both! She will also like the seat, roll cage, and harnesses you put in later after you get addicted to this...

bock

Thanks again for all the responses. I may have freed up some cash and I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do in the next month before the track outing. I need to go through the brakes anyway and it sounds like that is the weakest link. So now would be a good time to upgrade the calipers but I don't think I'll be able to swing new rims and tires, so I'm thinking the LS1 option.



I noticed the hubs are missing, are they a direct swap from my LT1 spindles?

I don't think it matters if it's an LS1 or an LT1 car that we start with. GM has typically used very similar brake bias calculations for most of their cars. This is why we can swap parts from one to the other, etc and it still works out ok. The LT1 has a single piston caliper with a large amount of piston area. That extra clamping load that's provided by the larger piston area is likely balanced out by the smaller rotor. I haven't seen the numbers worked for the LT1 cars, but I'd be surprised if the piston area/rotor diameter didn't work out to the same bias setting as the LS1 cars and the C5/C6 Corvette. It's more of a hunch than anything, but I suspect that's exactly what we'd find if we went looking.

The hubs are a direct swap. In fact if the system you end up buying has hubs included, check them for run out before using them. They wear our quickly when used for racing.


bock

Thanks bock, my hubs only have 40K and have basically been babied, so I'll probably just bolt them on.

Okay you guys have me sold, the LS1 spindles and calipers are on the way. Am I correct in my understanding that the rear brakes can basically be left stock, pads and all? Or since I have to order rotors and pads for the front (DTC-30?), should I get something comparable for the rear?

Again, thanks for all the help

Dan

Front and rear pad choices opens a whole new can-o-worms Dan. IMHO, For now, keep the stock pads in the rear until you get some experience on how your car is gonna handle.

If you get sucked into this like a lot of us, you may be buying wheels and tires before very long, and then you'll probably want to change pads again.

There are numerous threads on here about pads and bias front to rear. Also rear end "hop" if you get too much rear brake. Different fixes for different problems. Read up.

My opinion, do the fronts and play with that for a little while before moving to the rears.

bock