Hi, I'm from Columbus OH, part of a group from the GRM forum who are assembling a LeMons/Chump team around a 1985 Camaro.

I have zero f-body experience and have a backround in vw/bmw so I have much to learn.

The car is a v8/5speed with several layers of paint/bondo/rust, our plan is to run a mild 350 through a t5 and 9 bolt limited slip rear axle.
We have some hope of making the April 16-17th race at Gingerman but it's going to be one hell of a push to make the event.

A roll cage is the first order of business, at this point it's a toss up between a pre-bent kit from S&W or another supplier or me spending the time to make templates and have Tubular Techniques bend a cage.

List of parts we're looking for, cheap cast off stuff and local preferred

transmission cross member
t5 bellhousing
clutch/flywheel
clutch fork
clutch master/slave/line
pedal box

front calipers - standard size or larger
rear calipers
performance pads
torque arm
Twin Fans
Radiator
16" wheels

The car prior to being extracted from a snow bank in Scott OH


Behind my shop awaiting drivetrain/safety items

That's a pretty ambitious schedule you have there and still have just a body shell and little 3rd Gen experience. We've spent over a month just getting the 'little' stuff done for our newest team car. I can't imagine doing a whole car, start to finish in two months.

A working 9 bolt will probably be expensive. They are a good, strong diff for that body style, and parts are getting rare as hen's teeth to find. Additionally, you'll need to be creative as far as radiators are concerned. They seem to be a weak spot in 3rd Gens set up for this sort of racing. Many f-bodies I see in the pits, if they haven't just exploded into a spectacular ball of fire and smoke on track, are usually in to replace the steam in the cooling system with water. You may want to hunt junkyards for truck radiators, especially diesel truck radiators, and see what you can shoehorn into the front of your car.

You're needing the clutch parts? Is the car originally an auto car? If so, I'd recommend you throw a TH350 behind that SBC. It will be quicker, and probably increase your chance of actually being able to turn a wheel on track, given the tight schedule. Our group 'invested' in a tubing bender and make all our cages. Luckily, we have a couple of guys who can weld. Your kit idea may be a good one, given your schedule, but you'll be welding like mad.

Good luck.

The radiator is a 31x19" standard GM radiator. Take a tape measure. The one in Bernie came out of my car when I put in a custom AFCO racing radiator that I had built.

The S&W is a drag race cage, it will not pass tech for NASA or SCCA. It MIGHT pass for Lemons, but they use some of the same inspectors as NASA/SCCA, and the Lemons cage requirements have been getting more fussy over time. I suggest contacting John Pagel at 916.275.1039 for advice on mail order cages or a reference to a local shop. If you approach a local race shop with a completely stripped car and ask for a Lemons cage you can probably get the job done for under $2K. Time is not in your favor, tho - shops are busy now. Your can get cheap or fast or good quality - pick one. I suggest making the cages material and basic design meet NASA/SCCA standards to avoid having to redo it in the future.

The 3rd gen cooling path is both bottom and front breathing - you'll need a fresh chin deflector, and seal all the gaps where the AC condensor was removed. I suggest a cheap aluminum racing radiator from Jegmit - thick and as wide as will fit. OEM fans and shroud will work with some trimming and mounting fab. The drooping nose blocks airflow to the bottom breather - pull it up and strap in place. Keep the rest of the OEM shrouding in place.

Skip the 9", it will blow the budget - a junkyard 9" will need LCA mounts, spring perches, TA mounts, brakes. My advise is check the backlash on the 10 bolt, change fluid and go with it. Ratio won't matter much for Lemons.

If u already have the 9 BOLT (if u meant 9" then skip it, factory 3rd gens did have BW 9 bolts, though) stick with it. If u have the 10 bolt then stick with it. Either way should be good. If I would hv known I couple months ago, I just scrapped a 91. Had some of the parts u still needed. I did strip it pretty good, though. Best of luck

Thank you guys for the input, please keep it coming.

- the car came with the 9 bolt as a spare which is the only reason we're using it.
- S&W is now building cages specifically for Lemons/chump, they do meet the requirements for the series, hopefully it fits reasonably well.

OOps, Ya, 9bolt <> 9" . You're good there with fresh fluid, and check the axle seals for leakage, bearings for wear.



So they do! It looks like a good start from the diagram, let us know how it fits. I advise using the 1.75" DOM version, with a 220v welder.

You may want to look at this thread: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=13728

I'll be happy to answer questions or provide specs/advice on what we did and why if you have any questions.


Costas
Cars and such

I wish I had seen this earlier. S W is local to me, but I went with rollcagecomponents.com, out of VA. He built us a nice cage, which is actually a little more than lemons legal. I think it cost 660 shipped. 1.75 DOM, 2 nascar bars, 2 pass door bars, verticles, dash bar.

Look at the new rules regarding the 24 sq" spreaders if you haven't already.

As far as cooling, couldn't you just cut a large hole out of the nose to improve airflow? You don't get going fast enough (110 ish) to lose much to aero. Whatever you do, bring a spare radiator, if not an entire spare car.

BTW, It took me a ridiculous amount of time for the car to get done, but we took time for a TNT day about 6 weeks before the race at Summit. We got zero sleep thursday working till 2 am, then towing out before the race and worked on the car all day friday until about 6 PM too.

One of the best experiences I've ever had.

I will either use my tig welder to install the cage (and excuse to use the thing) or borrow a friends 220v mig.

Costas, thanks for the links, started reading through that today at lunch. These two pages are dead but the rest are still good:

http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch124.htm
http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch120.htm

That alone would be a big step backwards - there is more engineering to the radiator intake on both 3rd and 4th gen cars than is obvious. I've improved cooling by patching holes in the front fascia.

My advise is leave all the bodywork and shrouds bone stock and install a new, racing racing radiator with all gaps sealed. Use the OEM fans, make sure both are running and the blades are in good shape, fit to the new radiator with the minimum amount of trimming.

To change to front breather requires a sealed duct from the front of the car and an airdam to build high pressure air in front. ie: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?sho...14181&st=70 towards the bottom.

In the Lemons environment the OEM nose will be simpler to keep functional.

WAIT WAIT WAIT.

I instruct in my 92 1le/b4c car at TWS in July with no big issues. It still has AC, I shift at 4800 and run 20 min sessions. The radiator is a stock unit and the cooling system is in good shape. For the LeMons camaro (Bic) we did exactly nothing exotic. The 1LE car is 305TPI and 230rwhp/300rwtq. Bic is likely a 180hp and 225tq. This is an ENDURANCE race. The folks pushing 500$ cars to the redline every shift are the ones on the trailer by the 6 hour mark. I've done this five times now...I think I've got a decent handle on it. The fastest lap wins you nothing...this is not an autocross :-) We routinely finish well with somewhere between 10th and 20th lap times.

So....for Bic, I put on a fresh water pump. A good balanced 180 tstat. Clean radiator with foam strips on the side to seal to the body. No ac condenser in the way. Good factory air dam under radiator (we replaced with some non-bent plastic). I have two cheapie temp gauges in the car (one in each head). We shift about 4000ish unless in a hurry. Temps stay at 185-190. If the temperature got to be a problem the FIRST thing I would likely do is cut a U shape in the hood behind the radiator and bend the forward lip down 6-8" to let the air out. I'm pretty sure that is all we'd need to do ASSUMING temps got too high (which they have not yet). With a small block under the hood everyone hollers 'cheater', but when it idles at 500rpm smoothly (no cam), has a stock radiator and stock exhaust manifolds that shuts most folks up.

This is an extreme example of what I'd do to the hood. Only much smaller and use a bolt on each corner with a spacer to hold the leading edge lip down.


That being said, one other thing we did was pull the power steering. That is horsepower you get back to the wheels. It is another belt that can't break. It is fluid that can't be leaked. A manual s10 box bolts in and 'shazam' you've taken weight off the nose, stopped potential leaks and made a LOT more room under the hood (for airflow management too).

Thanks for the site update, those links didnt make the jump on the last site-move and I should have them back up soon. I'll let ya know :-)


Costas
cars and such...

and I HUGELY agree with Alan Blaine....getting air INTO the radiator is typically not the problem in a third gen, it is getting it OUT. We are running the stock single big fan and no problems. I'm sure the lack of power steering helps too.


Costas
cars and such...

And I agree with Mr Costas - a bone stock 3rd gen in good running order with good fluids and brakes and alignment, not overdriven, will have plenty of performance and reliability for a Lemons race.

My preference for a racing radiator (a new OEM works, too) is that you don't know what condition the existing one, or a used freebee, is in - I've seen them with side tanks bulging from running hot, clogged with sand, dog hair and who knows what. With a project of this nature you'll likely fire the motor up the first time on Friday nite an hour or so before loading for the track - that is a terrible time to discover the radiator leaks.

Focus on the safety gear, a basic tune up, alignment, brakes and cooling. Don't get sidetracked with making performance mods. A bit of time organizing the team and putting together a spares package will be well spent, too.

I'll donate to the cause... I've got a radiator from my LT1 if you want it. It was working fine when I removed it about 1 year ago. No dog hair, I promise. Don't know if it'll work in a 3rd gen 305. I've also got stock springs, ph bar, rear control arms (maybe), rad. overflow bucket. Again, it's for a 95 LT1, but if you want any of it let me know. I might have other stuff I'm not thinking of right now.

Wahoo! FREE PARTS!!

Yes, the rear springs, rear control arms and ph bar should all work. The rear parts can bend in a good lateral smack, so grab them. I *think* a 4th gen radiator works in a 3rd gen....anyone? The overflow likely will not. Take everything you can get...worst case, trade it for parts you need!!

Good luck, we're all expecting a good race report with lots of pics!! :-)


Costas
cars and such...

I thought the LT1 radiator had the inlet and outlets "swapped" (in the wrong location).

I think we might have a spare steel hood in storage somewhere (I'll have to ask) and I may have some stock parts laying around (I'll have to look).

Fantastic, I'm definitely interested in the radiator and any other parts, any free part is a huge bonus and the giver thereof shall be showered with appreciation and beer. Beer also available in non-shower form.

Tonight is the first official work evening, we're dragging the car into the shop for a proper assessment on a lift and to begin stripping the interior. There will be pictures, video and mighty ballads to mark our progress.

Video of the first thing we did to the car, re-seating an ancient 13" tire to make the hulk mobile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-YhujnBIEg

I'm going to try my best to get over to the shop tonight to take a look at this creature. I'm not dressed to work on anything, but I can drink beer and lend immoral support with the best of them. I even promise to sound like I know what I'm talking about...even though the odds are pretty good that I won't.

Yes, they're swapped. But you might be able to swap for something useful. Definitely start the event with a new radiator, stock, or race, doesn't much matter, but as others have said, it WILL make a difference on keeping the thing cool. I am on a 2-3 car team, and keeping the cars cool is the SINGLE BIGGEST problem we've had in these events.

If you use hoodpins, I suggest you weld the pins to the body. We've also had problems with those coming loose (all that pretty chrome doesn't grab for crap, no matter how tight you make it). Although we do field 4-cylinder cars, which seem to vibrate a bit more, I'd recommend it, as it's something less to worry about when you're on track.

There was a copper/brass 3 core radiator in my Camaro when I bought it. It was grafted into our Lemons Supra (it was HUGE compared to the stock radiator). The other Supra teams seemed to be having issues with cooling but we never did. I suspect that radiator played a large part in our victory in that race. We just kept turning laps.

Working on the car this weekend, intending to install an S&W cage. Obviously missed the April race at Gingerman, now using the pre-sanctioned marital calendar time to catch up on the car

The main and top hoops fit the car quite well, the A-pillar/down tubes are less than good. I did try inverting the tube so that the short bent section is at the top but that results in the tube being very far from parallel to the A-pillar.

All tacked progress so far, input most welcome.

I did an S&W kit in my '89 Formula, fit was just about identical to yours. I was hoping they'd improved over the years.

Once I get past the a-pillar tubes I think it will be fine, notching for the top hoop connection is a nightmare since I have to join on the bends which are slightly deformed from the bender. Lots of grinding.

Welded the bottoms of everything and then dropped the a-pillar tubes through the floor in order to 360 all the welds. Went with tig because it's more fun than mig.

Take those pictures with you to tech. The last event we did they really went over the hidden welds in the hoop and halo, and had failed several due to incomplete welds. Demonstrating that you went through the trouble may get you through tech faster.

Be careful with any deformed tubes, the tech guy, John (evilgenius) will be all over them.

As far as radiators, if you show up with a new one, they'll be all over that in BS. If you have a new one, leave it in the box and replace it "sometime during the race"

BS laps shouldn't matter, though as a great goal for your first race should be to take the checkered flag under your own power.

The only way we're going to be able to put a V8 in the T bird is that it went up in flames last race and we got 350 to spend from Jay.