ok, so this is not about w2w. all about track days / hpde.
I am at a stumbling point, participating in Porsche Club HPDE,
Black/Red Advanced Racer Group, I am getting passed by 2016 Cayman Gt4's, and 911 Gt3's., and newer cup cars.
Very comfortable in the groups, 50% pass/ 50% I pass.....

I am at the point of sliding the car, just to keep up, albeit controlled.

Have I reached the limit of a 4th gen?

The car is a 1998 Trans Am, built by Wheel to Wheel for competition in the 1998 Motorola Cup Series,
then Grand Am gt, then AIX,Ite..........

Should I Accept as is, or is there something to do (cost effectively) to be quasi-competitive..
(Remember, it is only HPDE/track days, not competition)

Specs are: 1998 Pontiac Trans Am, ls6 (little cam, 392 RWHP, full cage,, 3650 w/ driver, nascar front bar, one off adjustable rear bar,
heim jointed rear links (all)
heim /roto-jointed front upper and lower arms.
Auburn R/R carrier, 3.9 rear,
295/35 Hoosier R6's...
Full Cage,
New Trans,rear, brakes, tires, wheels etc..
ALl updated....

Have I reached the limit?\

Man seems like you're on the heavy side. My LT1 car is 3400 with me in it. I do only have a bolt in roll bar for now though. When I swap to an LS1 and light flywheel, my comp weight will be 3300lbs. It's still street legal.

Why is your car so heavy? Any idea?

Well, you're kinda racing against cars that in factory trim weigh around 600-700lbs less than your car, while also having the same or more horsepower than you.

From what I tend to see, 315's are where it's at now as well for big bodied domestics like ours.

While I haven't done a lot of HPDE I have often asked myself that same question. What is the max capability of the 4th Gen. On an AutoX I can say, it's on part with most cars. Brian Finch drove my car at LS Fest last year and it was right in the mix of the top 5 times....behind Danny Popp and his C5Z obviously. My car is high 3600 with me in it and has a 55/45 front bias. I have 500rwhp 295/315 Rivals full UMI suspension including K member, 10 bolt 342, no cage. My thing is, to make it more competitive I would have to make it a full race car. Cage, no AC, cut out some non essential metal, fixed back seats, remove parts of interior, lexan windows etc. My car at 3000# with 315/335 would be hard to handle I think. Saying I could hang with most stock 911s IMHO....likely if someone else was driving LOL. If I were you I would get up with some guys who really know how to set up a car and discuss what you can do to get weight out. I'm not sure if you run in a class and what those limits are, but weight and HP are key. If you can put more tire under there do so. Maximize braking as those Porsche are ridiculous.I am very interested in building a 3rd gen at some point because I don't think I am willing to hack my 4th Gen up to make it competitive. It's a really clean car with some fairly uncommon options, so I'd rather buy a decent 3rd gen then start cutting. If this doesn't make much sense I'm typing this on my phone and can't see half of what I'm typing.

Of the car? Maybe. Of your wallet? Probably.

All joking aside, 315s fit fairly easily, not sure on your wheel width, but you might be able to do it on the same wheels.

Weight is probably one of the most low hanging fruit items. At 3600lbs, there's a ton of it before you even get to spending big money ($20/lb+). That is assuming you do your own wrench work. If you have to farm it out, you probably won't want to spend the money.

Thanks for the input, I will look into the weight thing.
Thinking, I could do front and rear glass. I know the rear hatch is heavy as well, possible to fabricate a new one.
As far as all else. It has been this way since it was built.
Does have full cage, nascar door bars, petty bar, no a/c, mini cage around bottom and back of fuel cell.
Possible to strip out front and rear bumpers to skin, but then we start adding a safety reduction.

I currently have the 295s on the original 17x11 CCWs, and 275 h2O's on 9, and 275 BFG comp2's on 9s for spares.
ANd a set of NT01's in 275 to replace the hoosiers when done..
SHocks are stock bilsteins, with coilover adapters, and corner balanced to 49.3%.

The rear is loose, so my education needs to begin on how to adjust my bars, any ideas?

I do all my own work. and I may have pre-loaded the front bar by accident when I put in the front upper and lower arms last week.

Guess keeping up with, and some times passing $100k to $200k new Porsches, with all sorts
of modern technology, (conversely, me with no ABS, and in essence a relic)
driven by those with
decades of experience, or more money than self preservation genes, is a good thing. the black/red
is our advanced racer group, populated by club racers, instructors, and the likes of myself, which,
over the past 2 years ,I have been checked out and moved up through the ranks..

Oh wow that thing looks awesome. But I'm really scratching my head as to where the weight is coming from. Your car is totally stripped but weighs 250 lbs more than my LT1 car. And I've got a heavy LT1 with a heavy stock flywheel.


You're positive that's how much the car weighs? CMC cars usually weigh around 3300 with driver and a full cage like you have. And they aren't allowed to run lexan.

I myself weigh probably right at 200 with my helmet on, if I skip breakfast. What do you weigh?


I know I could be even faster if I dumped my Camaro and got a C5 Z06, but I just have a blast in my Camaro. Everyone expects to see corvettes on the track. Not many expect to see old 4th gens that they think are only good for going straight, let alone pass them. For me it's more about the fun factor.

I'm with Steve on the weight thing. Where are you hiding it? You are running a lightweight battery, right?

I think you need to relocate the Accusump hold down out to the ends of the housing. Those clamps help maintain compression on the end caps, helping to prevent catastrophic filling of the interior of the car with hot oil. With the clamps inboard of the ends, you also risk misshaping the housing, potentially binding the piston inside.

Pics are old when first got car, everything was addressed, including accusump clamps, s/s braided in passenger compartment, etc.
As far a weight, I am sure the front bar arms are substantial.
Weight i think accurately is 3545, with me 200lbs.
No light weight battery, abs block in car, but disconnected, where can i get bypass kit?
exhaust is dynatech dragster headers, 3" collector, 9" coupling at 3", to 9x17" 3" inlet outlet spintech race mufflers, and then
4" oval pipe exiting in front of tires, (sort of heavy).

I think weight is all in cage, and suspension.?

Would stiffer rear springs help the rear being loose?


Does have ls7 clutch kit, with steel flywheel, (since the ram billet got smoked, on the first day out, when I snapped the input shaft, due to shop
not putting fluid in trans!!!!!!!)

Usually softer rear will help oversteer. What are your rates right now?

Is the cage chrome moly tubing?

Did they melt lead into any of the rear cage tubes for ballast? That's my only other idea. I've heard of that being done to "make weight" in some classes (not sure I've ever actually seen it done, but maybe you have some weight in the cage tubes).

Chrome moly cage, log books do not specify,as I remember, and not sure, lead in cage foot, who knows.
we need to find archives of rules from 1998 Speedvision Motoriola Cup, and 2000-2002 Grand Am Gt/GS Cup..
I can lessen action of rear sway bar, loosening the 2 bolts, and I can turn the blade to horizontal.
According to Dan Van Auken, previously of Wheel to Wheel, in Detroit, who built this and 3 , I think more that year, as GM Sponsored builds,
for the intro of the LS motor in 98'. See pics of his one off adjustable rear sway bar....
Otherwise , spoke to John, at CCW, and he remembers making the wheels for the cars, 2 are original 30 bolt race wheels, 2 are 20 bolt later revisions.
And at 17x11, plus 1/4 spacers, I should fit 315's square...

SO there are forward moving options, just trying to figure if I should accept, and succumb to the Modern Porsche thing,
Or overcome, and move forward..

Again, all input and ideas are greatly appreciated..

Best I can track back, car was a Powell Racing, fron Canada, for 98-2000, then confirmed MBR Racing, Mike Baughman, til 2004, then ITE/AIX, with a guy in WInchester VA. ( MIke, and Dave,of Va. I spoke with in depth)

Thanks for all input

That car is nowhere near the limits. Should be able to lose weight, you're still on a stock height Panhard bar, not sure what torque arm you have. Bilstein shocks leave lots to be desired. You could make the car a lot faster with a proper setup.

I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to put lead in the cage. In a car like that, ballast would be bolted to a secure location that's accessible in case it would need to be changed before/during/after an event.

I would:
-Remove as much weight as possible
-Contact Jason @ unbalanced engineering about a lowered Panhard setup, along with some new springs and shocks
-315 tires at all 4 corners

Factory ABS is junk, remove it and make sure a proportioning valve is installed. Instead of using those messy aftermarket kits, I re-plumbed my car using standard 3/16" hard line, and -3 AN flex lines at each wheel ($10 a piece at the local circle track supply store.)

If the car is loose, DO NOT stiffen the rear springs. If you need tighten the car up use softer rear springs or soften the rear sway bar. If the rear bar blades are still standing straight up like in the picture, that bar is full stiff.

Flattening the rear blades will make the rear bar softer... Do you have a picture of the front end links that attach to the lower control arm. You don't want to pre-load that front bar. You should be able to rotate the end links with the car on the ground and driver weight in the car. Splined sway bars are less forgiving than the stock style, it will handle like ass if there is preload on the bar.

Any in car videos of the car in action?

Hookdup

What tracks have you run this car at and any lap times? Like Steve said, any video??

Also what is the alignment settings on the car?

I have never ventured beyond NJMP, both tracks Lightning/ Thunderbolt,
since nov, 2013, 30 plus trackdays, I went from beginner, to black/red, racer group.

November 2013, was the 1st time I drove on a road course, with my 2013 1LE,

after over heating carbotech xp10/xp12, on the Camaro, I searched and got myself a much safer car.
and now I am at a stumbling point.
I do know both tracks , very well, I am very content being 1 hour and 15 minutes away,

and my 06' f350, likes staying local. 6.0 liter, which has served me well, but apprehension,
dictates, no far trips,

As far as videos, there are cameo appearances on youtube, but functionality of the car and my self preservation, are more important than
you tube.

http://www.ponycars.net/images/tempimages/...JM_DE2_5272.jpg

There are fixes for the 6.0. Do them now and it should last you a long time.

I don't understand your comment on videos.

No actual videos,
Functionality is more important,
Will some day explore data, but for now its seat of the pants!
I will have to go backwards from r6's, as they are nearing life cycle.
i have a set of Nt-01's in 275, which I hope to get the rest of the year out of..
We shall see.
As far as alignment, (not trusting anyone, I multiple times checked my measurements,
And are at
3-3.5 camber LF, 2-2.5 Rf
toe near zero.
( no turn tables, so car was driven back and forth 50 ft, after each adjustment..
Issues do come up, I just installed Spohn Spherical upper arms, and Roto Joint lowers,
Problem is, they must be removed to make adjustments,

Lots of time spent..
Thank you everyone, and more insight, please contribute

Those swaybars are the bees knees. Always wondered if anybody had run splined swaybars on these front and rear. Guess I got the answer.

Taking a minute to mount a GoPro or even a cell phone with Harry's lap times is a very useful tool. I watch my videos when I get home from a track day and it's amazing what mistakes I see in the video that I had no idea happened. Also it shows where I was fast, what works and what doesn't.

Trust me, it's not just to show your friends, it's a very important tool used to improve the driver. It also would allow us to look at the video and possibly see something that could help to answer your question.