After this weekend's carnage with my F-Buds, I am giving serious consideration to just quitting.

It seems most are caught up in FTD and willing to spend what it takes to get internet bragging rights. I just can't do that.

The costs associated with it, the time required to create it and the effort put forth into it is so great that it appears daunting ... and especially no fun.

When I first began doing this with Chuck, it was a blast. We hung out, laughed, joked, did a little maintenance ... it was fun.

Now, we all seem to work so hard at keeping these damn cars running, that the fun part is gone.

Don't misunderstand ... I cherish my friendship with all those I run with. But looking back at the last few times we have run together ... we always seem to be thrashing on someone's car.

If I were racing, then the expectation set would be differnet. But this is just OT. There is no prize for first.

I guess it's time for me to decide on what my priorities are.

Try to do more autocrossing...

Mitch... You have entered my world of about a year ago.

I just didn't see keeping on putting money in an aging platform unless I intended to actually race it. And secondly, I didn't see the ability to afford to road race it.

So thus the entry into dirt track racing, since I could actually race 30 nights a year for about the same or less than 4-8 OT events a year.

It is that incurable disease we so often discuss.

I agree with the above. Half the fun of racing is being able to put yourself against others in the same league as you to compare whos the best driver with the best setup. In regular OT events there really isnt any of this. Granted there is a lot to learn at a HPDE, but once your level of improvement starts to slow from event to event you can start to lose the thrill. Thats the case with me so now its time to step up to something that falls in a bracket that actually has some people racing in it that are at the same or close level as me. Why not look into building a spec car and running SCCA/NASA events? It would be a shame to have such a nice tow truck and nothing to tow.

Mitch,
When my Z went south, I didn't do what I did for bragging rights. Hell, I can't even get on the track with it right now.

But watching the mayhem this weekend, I came to pretty much the same conclusion.

I am not blowing my motor up once a year and dumping money into it. Ridiculous.
I might as well buy a sprint car, and at least have the opportunity to WIN money to put back into it.

I haven't regretted at all hanging with you guys and HPDE, but it is getting excessive, and expensive.

Where did it go awry?
I am truly pondering the route that you are.....

tough decisions....

there is one easy answer though... Stock Class racing...

it's too bad there isn't a low-budget stock F-body and Mustang Road Racing class.. they're all modified classes..


i think the only options are F-stock Solo II.... or T2 road racing..

i guess you could run T2 on a low budget(if you consider a LS1-4th-gen a cheap car... i don't)...


a stock road racing class for Mustangs and F-bodies(all years and all engines) would be perfect.. those LT1 cars are CHEAP

Mitch,

I've not had the experiences that you have dealt with so far. But I was counting on them occuring at some point. I understand your plight. This is why you've heard me mumbling the words "Spec Miata" or "CMC" recently. Build something I can afford to destroy and then hope to not see that occur. This is why I've spent more on upgrading my camera equipment in the last year than car parts. I know it will be useful and have some value, even used. Cars and parts don't always seem to fair so well.

Tough call.....

....don't retire...re-evaluate...go Spec Miata....as MUCH AS I HATE THEM ...they are CHEAP....and never break.....and are disposible!

There are multiple ways to skin a cat! Besides...that truck has GOT TO TOW somethin'

if you decide to stop having fun....

i'd like to look at buying your trailer

Vultures ....

Take up drag racing....yeah its less skill but its also less cost unless you break something

I've been thinking along the same lines.
Modding a car can get out of hand, quick.. and money is the only limit.

That's part of the reason I chose to move into CMC.
The mods are limited. The power output isn't so high that parts break regularly. They still have 8 cylinders and are rear wheel drive. They run 1:26's at MSR.

The adminsistrator ought to ban a guy for making posts like this on a road race and autocross board.

I don't know how the road guys do it. I enjoy a couple open tracks a year, but that's all I can afford. Fortunately I can be competitve locally in autocross for relatively cheap.

IMHO the only way to enjoy cars and not have to work on them is to get into the show scene...then you're cleaning them and detailing all the time.

If you do anything remotely competitive stuff is going to break and you're also going to want to modify.

Just part of being a car guy. I've been through it too lately. It helped me to kind of take a break. I went almost 2 mos w/o even driving or touching the car at all. That helped.

IMHO the only way to enjoy cars and not have to work on them is to get into the show scene...then you're cleaning them and detailing all the time.

If you do anything remotely competitive stuff is going to break and you're also going to want to modify.

Just part of being a car guy. I've been through it too lately. It helped me to kind of take a break. I went almost 2 mos w/o even driving or touching the car at all. That helped.

That's good advice, Chris.

I'll let the car sit for a couple of months and then re-evaluate.

Right now, the car's registration is out. So I can't even drive it to work.

Mitch-

You aren't "April Foolin'" are you...

Mitch's car was once a "show car", ie garage queen (Mitch's words, not mine)

There are still trophy's in his garage.

Mitch, other than this event, when was there a thrash to get/keep a car running?

I broke a PHB
Glenn broke a valve spring
4 brake jobs on a Saturday night at WMC

Kevin ...

No April Foolin' here ... kind of ironic, though ain't it?

Chuck, I remember those days ...

Just go get in the car, turn the key and drive it. No rattles, rubs or groans ... no roar from the exhaust or clicking of double valve springs ... no leg numbing seats and a rear view mirror that I could see out of.

They call those daily drivers

Kind of funny how over time you forget how much of a Cadillac a stock
f-body rides and quite it is.

Well Mitch, now you see why I have tried my "darn"dest
to stay away from track days. Yes, autocross isn't daily driving but I feel it's not as hard on the car, JMO.....and I know that I would get hooked in a second if I started.

......come to the dark side

Not according to my wife - and that's with the shocks on full soft...

I will toss in a left-field anecdote on this.

One of my other major hobbies is competitive shooting. I own a German-made Anschutz 1907 smallbore precision rifle. In college I only shoot once every two weeks or so, but I used to shoot 5 or 6 times a week in high school (we had arguably one of the top teams / coaches in the midwest). After four years in it, I came to college and just lost interest.

I still shoot now and then, but I just got burnt out on constant practicing. In the end the best way to handle it was to throttle off and only come back to it whenever I really feel the urge. Even though that might only be once or twice a month, on those nights that I do sit down and shoot, I seize the moment and genuinely enjoy every minute of it.

Having done both, I disagree.

AX was more violent and the car was on the rev limiter constantly.

And the stone chips from Mineral Wells was too much

I've got a lot of friends talking the same way right now. I think It's the weather change. It is something everyone goes through from time to time. You can get burned out on just about any hobby or activity under the sun, like Trax said. Moderation is the key to everything. I think if you take a break for a little while, you'll be alright.

Everyone on this board does what they do because they enjoy it, none of his are making any money from it. Some of us do it because they like the competition, some do it just to drive their car and have fun, and some do it for a little bit of both. If your not enjoying it at the moment, just take a break, no big deal. Let her sit just long enough for you to walk outside one of these Texas spring days when it's 75 degrees out, no wind, and blue skies. Then pull her out of the shop, roll the windows down, and you'll be "sane" again. I know it will happen, done it many, MANY, a time.

multi-hobby is the way to go


one way to gain a different perspective on things is to go float down the Guadalupe River for 3 days straight... 72 hours of relaxtion and about 12 cases of beer will have you begging for the stress of normal life and hobbies

just a suggestion..

gotta wait till Summer though.. Guadalupe is cold!

Oh HELL yes!!! That reminds me, I gotta start planning this summer's trip...before I go insane from work.

<sorry for the semi-hijack>

trax, that is what I do, but a little different. In 2000 I was a drag racer, 2001 I did a bunch of autox and HPDE, in '02 I mainly did HPDE and not much. In '03 I did a lot of autocross, and in '04 I am (was) doing HPDE. Maybe it is time to go back to blowing up clutches and rear axles, since they are the remaining weak link in my car, or maybe I could rice it out and make it a "show car"

As for the autox/HPDE comparison, I think that autox is harder on suspension and tires, and in much smaller doses. Autox requires more skill, HPDE requires bigger cojones. HPDE is harder on the motor and brakes, and while is purchased in much larger blocks of time, is about 1/3 as much per minute of seat time compared to autox. Of course autox is competitive, while HPDE is a "non timed, non competitive event" cough.

I burned out on autocrossing around 1988. Before that I ran pretty religiously every weekend. I had a dedicated autocross car that I put about 9000 miles on one summer just driving to events. Eventually I got sick of spending every Sunday in a parking lot. Now that my son is interested in the sport I have renewed my interest again and am looking forward to this season. I does do a person good to take some time off. I played trombone in high school and never touched the horn again for about 25 years. When my son started to play, I took it up again and am now playing in two bands. These are both activities we can do together and it has been fun.

If it's competition you want and a real sense of winning why not try CMC or spec miata like someone else stated? You could always make a trip out to a foreign track to shake things up. Running MSR all the time might be part of it.

i now bring my own time!

Mitch, the decision you're coming up against now is one I faced the year before last. I decided to make the car into a race car and take it off the street. That way at least I was driving the car hard for something. OT days just didn't do much for me. I found myself letting up some laps to wait for someone else on track to be close to me so I could try and lose them, if noone was in front of me. However, going AI or worse yet AIX does take a HUGE amount of preparation time. Since my work schedule is picking up more this year and my son is taking up more of my time I'm finding it very hard to keep up.

I'd let it sit for a little while and then truly evaluate your options. If your time is limited I'd strongly consider CMC. I don't think LS1 engines are allowed in CMC, so you'd have to sell your car and either get a LT1 or 3rd gen, but it's low budget racing. There's always Spec Miata but I just don't ever see myself road racing something that low on power.

Ok, I'll give you that AX is much more violent in transactions but to me that translates to shock & tires (for the most part). On the car being at red line, that should happen on rare occations......to the best of my knowledge, I only hit it twice all season in Chuck's car last year. Most of the time should be spent in the 3000 - 4500 RPM range where the power is usable.

I also give you MW, don't care for the place much myself, but I use tape to prvent the "sand blasting" and that seems to work.....but there are pleanty of other events.

But I guess the point that you're getting at is that any type of "racing" is going to be abusive to our cars. I just feel that AX is minimizing the potential risks....to a degree(again JMO).

Good luck in your decision.

I guess it's a good thing we have an off season during the winter. I can't wait to get to the track again......21 more days left! It's like waiting for Xmas when you were a little kid. How many different tracks do you go to? That makes a difference too. In the Northeast, we have Watkins Glen, Summit Point, Jefferson Circuite, Shenandoah, Limerock, BeaveRun, Mid-Ohio, Pocono, and Virginia International (all within a ~8 hour drive, most within a 4 hour drive). The variety helps out too I guess.

Thanks for your input ...

I also wonder if the driving arrangement you and Chuck had last year was a precursor to his troubles now. Double the "abuse" couldn't have been good ...

I don't think there is a very competitive autoxer that doesn't have a co-driver. Especially in SP and SM since the tires are bigger, and a co-driving tire-warmer is much more beneficial.


I think as far as oil starvation goes, the RR stuff has to be harder. True the transitions could un-cover a pickup, but it's right back. The RR corners sustain, the high G's AND high RPM's

As far as the sand blasting goes I'm going to be using clear 3M film on my paint for vulnerable parts. I just bought some bulk film that I'll cut out and apply to the rockers and the fenders behind the tires. They also make pre cut pieces for the front end ect. If interested check out

http://www.clearbra.com/

Well, it is just my opinion but I don't believe that to be the case, knowing 1st hand the stresses the engine went thru, unless it was a factory flaw to begin with(but I guess anything is possible). The argument could also be made on 1/4 mile runs and/or the occational street race between events could have led up to the issue as well.....but again, I don't think that to be the case.

Knowing f-bodies have a poor oil pickup system, it is my belief in RR the sustained higher RPM's coupled with the G loads (and durations) and oil pickup problems are a recipe for engine relate issues.(ESPCamaro beat me to the punch) So with that being said, from my end, I guess we will just agree to disagree.

.........the debate rages on

Lets be nice. For the record, I never said anything on the lines of the last page here. The motor was abused, it decided to go boom. The car was real strong when stock, and I assume it was a little loose. 34.5K miles and 60 days of racing later, it broke.

Mitch, sorry to hear you are having serious second thoughts.

Do you have any "Time trial" type events in Texas?

I know how you feel ( I think). Not enough money for full road race, Autox is just too slow and as Open tracking gets more competitive the costs skyrocket. Here in the Great White North we have a VERY competitive series of Solo 1 events which basically are time trials on race tracks with no fender to fender racing. It's alot like professional type qualifying. The series is really tight and pits cars against other cars of similar performance based on wgt/HP and a fudge factor "handling index". Any modification other than nitrous is allowed so you don't have to worry about bending the rules or building a car to fit a certain classification.

This series is basically "run what you brung" and we get everything from street driven grocery getters to fully prepped and heavily modified full out race cars. The competition is very friendly ( after all, the year end prizes are just not that big) , sanctioned by the Canadian Autosport Club (C.A.S.C.) which is the equivalent of the SCCA. The costs are generally less then 20% of road racing and vehicle damage is very rare. Although I change rotors, pads and tires at the track, my 97 LT1 has never left me stranded and is my daily driver.

From what I hear, Solo 1 in the USA is almost non existant and maybe its time for that to change. It might suit you well.

If you are interested I can forward to you a somewhat long Word document that explains the series to you. It is supposed to be on the www.casc.on.ca website but isn't yet.

Solo 1 is rare here, but NASA has started a time trials series that takes place during most of their HPDE weekends I believe. I don't think that's directionally correct for Mitch's concern though. He, like many of us, has realized that OT days end up escalating in competitiveness until days at the track can become more work than fun. Actually racing will likely drive up the work load even more, and you can only hope the fun factor goes up even more.

Mitch, between this decision and whether you need a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton truck your life is full of quandries at the moment. Then again, if you back off the OT days for awhile you don't need either truck do you?

I think he already bought a truck. 3/4 ton, I think.....

The new question is:

"To tow, or not to tow. That is the question"

Chuck, Andrew ... I was just thinking out loud. I wasn't trying to place blame anywhere. Just throwing out possibilities ...

Yes I bought a 3/4 ton ... a 1/2 ton was the same money ...

I don't know what I'm gonna do. The best advice I've seen is to just back off and let it sit for a while. I'm currently knee-deep in hell-month. I am giving room for that as a factor in my decision.

But, to let everyone know ... it has nothing to do with what anyone has said or done. I hold no ill will towards anyone. The cross roads I am at is purely mine and not influenced by anyone but me and my wishes.

What's hell-month?

I work at a nuke power plant. It's a 2 unit site and each unit goes down for 4-5 weeks every 18 months for refuel and maintenance.

84 hour weeks are not uncommon ...

DEFINATELY stay away from the car during these times....frustration is easy in racing....ESPECIALLY when you already have "other" pressures...

...schedule time away from racing during these periods for sure...

.....just forget it, and go work on Lou's car for relaxation when you can.....bet THAT IS FUN!

- I knew you had longer weeks durring that time, but I never gathered that it was that bad.

16 hour days + 7 hours of sleep = no life durring that period......sorry to hear that.

Mitch... It is definitely not time to give up on OT events. Just schedule less per year and I guarantee your interest will be there.

It is just killing me to not go when all you guys are going.

I sure hope everyone is still on for the Nov. event??? I am planning now for it.