[sgarnett]

The Senate, UAW, et al, just gave up (ie failed) on reaching a compromise a few minutes ago.

I don't know how GM will come out after bankruptcy (they just hired the bankruptcy lawyer), but the stock market futures are looking ugly tonight. It actually held up well through some dismal recent employment numbers, but I suspect tomorrow is gonna be ugly. Rebuilding my retirement is going to mean austerity and no new cars for a very long time, and I suspect that will be true for many others. That can't be good for any automaker.

I'll admit I wasn't convinced that bridge loans to March could solve the problems for GM, so I don't claim to know what the right answer was. Nevertheless, this is going to be a big kick in the teeth for the economy.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Dec 12 2008, 04:07 AM

[pknowles]

I'm surprised the GM investors aren't fed up and file Chapter 7. Between heavy government regulations and extortion like behavior by the UAW, I can't believe they didn't liquidate and run years ago.

[nape]

I'm surprised the GM investors aren't fed up and file Chapter 7. Between heavy government regulations and extortion like behavior by the UAW, I can't believe they didn't liquidate and run years ago.

Remember this within the next 30 years when Toyota finally has a lot of workers who are old enough to start collecting a pension. Are you going to be telling them to do the same thing because... the vicious employees negotiated too much for retirement benefits? They just admitted that their labor costs about the same, the majority of the difference is the amount of people collecting.

A labor union would have saved my job. I had the 3rd highest seniority (sp) and got cut to save costs.
I have family in the Teamsters union (geesh).
I understand what/why the labor unions were created.

But with sensible workers rights regulations and a decent economy, I just don't see any use for the unions. The ones that are strong are hurting the companies in which they are in place. The weak ones only take the workers money and do nothing for them.....

Part of this money should be aimed at buying out union contracts and/or eliminating them.....

I'd take a non union job at a GM plant for less than what they make and with fewer benefits. Offer me a 401k keep the pension and call me a happy M/F. And you better beleive I wouldn't be the only one........

Another thing I hate to bring up since I've been labeled racist, biggot etc (if you know me you know that is idiotic but whatever).......In industrial jobs around me there are still tons of illegal immigrants. And tons of U.S citizen workers out of a job. Time to actually do something about this problem now too.

The use for unions is strength in numbers and this time it's working in reverse. Too many people drawing pensions is increasing the cost per vehicle too much, but that could happen to any manufacturer with an aging work force.

In tough times, it's interesting to see what people will do to undercut each other. Who cares if you'd take a job for less then what they make with fewer benefits? I'm sure a lot of people would, but you must've thought you had a better deal going before the economy went into the dumper or you'd already be working there.

We're seeing that in the trades as well. People who think they should be white collar but decided to try a trade because the job market sucks. I wish they'd keep their white collar, they come out, don't want to work hard, don't want to get dirty, don't want to go home sore. Be careful what you wish for.

Trackbird: You're exactly right about the money and that's why it pisses me off when people bring it up. So what if a UAW represented employee makes $150k/year? He had to work a shitload of hours to do it.

I'm an IBEW Electrician and a lot of people complain about how much we cost, that we're lazy, make too much money. Yeah, I know guys hitting the $150k/year mark this year, but they've been on the road 8-10 months this year working 6-7 days a week (58-96hrs/wk).

As far as non-union not necessarily being better, we saw a good example of it on the job I'm working at right now. We didn't get the bid to install 4 transformers, a non-union shop did. It takes us 5 guys for 3 days to dress out 1 transformer. The rat shop took 8 guys 10 days to dress out each transformer. But, they can make it happen because they pay their guys 1/4 to 1/2 of what we make. You figure out which one is right or better.

[pknowles]

I'm surprised the GM investors aren't fed up and file Chapter 7. Between heavy government regulations and extortion like behavior by the UAW, I can't believe they didn't liquidate and run years ago.

Remember this within the next 30 years when Toyota finally has a lot of workers who are old enough to start collecting a pension. Are you going to be telling them to do the same thing because... the vicious employees negotiated too much for retirement benefits? They just admitted that their labor costs about the same, the majority of the difference is the amount of people collecting.

Pensions are good. They help add stability to your work force, keeping your experienced people in the company to help train the newcomers. However, the pensions should be secured with some sort of bonds (in full or part), not secured by future sales or profits. This is the problem GM is facing.

My true beef with the UAW is the strike last year, that was the definition of extortion in my mind.

This post has been edited by pknowles: Dec 14 2008, 03:22 AM