[sgarnett]

The Senate, UAW, et al, just gave up (ie failed) on reaching a compromise a few minutes ago.

I don't know how GM will come out after bankruptcy (they just hired the bankruptcy lawyer), but the stock market futures are looking ugly tonight. It actually held up well through some dismal recent employment numbers, but I suspect tomorrow is gonna be ugly. Rebuilding my retirement is going to mean austerity and no new cars for a very long time, and I suspect that will be true for many others. That can't be good for any automaker.

I'll admit I wasn't convinced that bridge loans to March could solve the problems for GM, so I don't claim to know what the right answer was. Nevertheless, this is going to be a big kick in the teeth for the economy.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Dec 12 2008, 04:07 AM

[T.O.Dillinder]

My brother is making $ 17.50 per hour ($ 36,400 gross per year)at Lear Seating
His wife was making $ 22.76 per hour ($ 47,340.80 gross per year) working on the assembly line at GM on 2nd shift.
Compare that to your yearly wage.
The 150K hourly workers are in the Skilled Trades (Plant and Machinery Maintanence)with a wage of $35 p/hr., that are working Saturdays and Sundays and are making that wage double and triple that on those weekend days.
The Assembly workers at the Chrysler plant in Belvedere, IL are making over $ 26.00 per hour now.
Financial Institution and Corporate Heads need to quit taking the 7 to 9 figure Bonuses. How can anyone justify that kind of bonus when their company is losing money.
In 1963 my father started at the Janesville plant making $ 3.63 per hour. after his proby period he bought a 1963 Corvette.
I do not recall the sticker price. I think they were around $ 6,500.00 back then.
Anyways, my point is look at what my bro makes and the cost of a new Corvette.
The cost of living has risen at a higher percentage rate than people's salaries, it doesn't matter what your profession is.
If we could figure what the CEO of GM was making in 1963 compared to today, we would all be shocked at how the gap between the salary of a Top Person of a Corporation and the salary of "low guy" Joe has become greater by what some would consider extreme.
If I remember correctly from one of my business management classes from long ago, the CEO made approximately 300 times more than the lowest paid worker in the same company.
Today, using the estimate $ 130 million dollar salary for a CEO (and this is low, I have seen upwards of $ 300,000,000 with all options considered), and my sister-in-law's wage. The CEO makes 2,746.04 times more than my brother's wife.
So don't start hating on Union workers. You can hate on the Union Organizations Heads all you want.
Times have changed since my Grandfather was an original "Sit Downer" at the Janesville GM Plant.
The Unions pushed for what all of us share now days. Paid Vacations, 40 Hour work week, and safety improvements, and for hourly personnel, job security. But like any big organization there is politics and greed ot the top that pollutes the original cause and mode of operations of that organization.
If someone is not working, how are they going to buy your product to keep you employed?
If you price something out of the average person's range, how are you going to sell your product to keep you employed?
Sorry for the soap box, but to lay blame on the blue collar workers of companies is just plain stupid.
Teddy Roosevelt bailed out banks in the 1920's, and what happened?
The exact same thing that is happening now. Funds being use improperly by the Corporate Leaders.
What was the outcome?
The Great Depression.

[ESPCamaro]

My brother is making $ 17.50 per hour ($ 36,400 gross per year)at Lear Seating
His wife was making $ 22.76 per hour ($ 47,340.80 gross per year) working on the assembly line at GM on 2nd shift.
Compare that to your yearly wage.
The 150K hourly workers are in the Skilled Trades (Plant and Machinery Maintanence)with a wage of $35 p/hr., that are working Saturdays and Sundays and are making that wage double and triple that on those weekend days.
The Assembly workers at the Chrysler plant in Belvedere, IL are making over $ 26.00 per hour now.
Financial Institution and Corporate Heads need to quit taking the 7 to 9 figure Bonuses. How can anyone justify that kind of bonus when their company is losing money.
In 1963 my father started at the Janesville plant making $ 3.63 per hour. after his proby period he bought a 1963 Corvette.
I do not recall the sticker price. I think they were around $ 6,500.00 back then.
Anyways, my point is look at what my bro makes and the cost of a new Corvette.
The cost of living has risen at a higher percentage rate than people's salaries, it doesn't matter what your profession is.
If we could figure what the CEO of GM was making in 1963 compared to today, we would all be shocked at how the gap between the salary of a Top Person of a Corporation and the salary of "low guy" Joe has become greater by what some would consider extreme.
If I remember correctly from one of my business management classes from long ago, the CEO made approximately 300 times more than the lowest paid worker in the same company.
Today, using the estimate $ 130 million dollar salary for a CEO (and this is low, I have seen upwards of $ 300,000,000 with all options considered), and my sister-in-law's wage. The CEO makes 2,746.04 times more than my brother's wife.
So don't start hating on Union workers. You can hate on the Union Organizations Heads all you want.
Times have changed since my Grandfather was an original "Sit Downer" at the Janesville GM Plant.
The Unions pushed for what all of us share now days. Paid Vacations, 40 Hour work week, and safety improvements, and for hourly personnel, job security. But like any big organization there is politics and greed ot the top that pollutes the original cause and mode of operations of that organization.
If someone is not working, how are they going to buy your product to keep you employed?
If you price something out of the average person's range, how are you going to sell your product to keep you employed?
Sorry for the soap box, but to lay blame on the blue collar workers of companies is just plain stupid.
Teddy Roosevelt bailed out banks in the 1920's, and what happened?
The exact same thing that is happening now. Funds being use improperly by the Corporate Leaders.
What was the outcome?
The Great Depression.

I wasn't laying blame on the blue collar worker........GM has had a long history of paying out big bonuses to white collar position holders, and/or refusing to cut white collars....As I understand it.

I'm simply pointing out that if it costs company X 1 and 3/4 to make something as company Y, company X is at a disadvantage........


I do find it interesting that saving a million jobs comes with such reservation for law makers, yet they just rushed right into giving money away to AIG etc.


Again I'm not entirely against unions. They would have protected my job. Pay was similar or better than what you quoted, but guess what. I'm out of a job. Union workers aren't (yet). And I put more than just time in, but time giving-----yeah I'll just not get into it.

This post has been edited by ESPCamaro: Dec 13 2008, 04:50 AM

[T.O.Dillinder]

I wasn't laying blame on the blue collar worker........GM has had a long history of paying out big bonuses to white collar position holders, and/or refusing to cut white collars....As I understand it.

I'm simply pointing out that if it costs company X 1 and 3/4 to make something as company Y, company X is at a disadvantage........


I do find it interesting that saving a million jobs comes with such reservation for law makers, yet they just rushed right into giving money away to AIG etc.


Again I'm not entirely against unions. They would have protected my job. Pay was similar or better than what you quoted, but guess what. I'm out of a job. Union workers aren't (yet). And I put more than just time in, but time giving-----yeah I'll just not get into it.

Do not take it personal, because I was not taking any shots at you, or anyone else on here, just the politicians. I am just upset at the "bone-headed" things they ALL are doing.
I am also upset that there are people who do not take responsibility for their desicions (AIG, GM, Ford, etc, etc.), and are asking the government to save their behinds.
I smell communism on the horizon. Communism did not work either, ask Russia.
Free Trade of GOODS would work if the other country's citizens would buy our products. But they do not.
It is late and it is this economic situation that has me upset. With my sibling and his family about to lose everything they have worked to get.
I have a secure job, doesn't pay well enough for me to go wheel to wheel racing at all, hence starting the parts business in hopes to subliment my income.
My health has improved a lot, but I have been stuck at the 280 lbs. I am at.
Personally I am all right, just won't be able to do the thing I have wanted to do since I grabbed a wrench at 3 years old.
I hope I can find a Camaro or Trans-Am come Mid March so I can play a little bit on track days.
Anyways thanks for letting me vent some.

[PeteL]

Free Trade of GOODS would work if the other country's citizens would buy our products. But they do not.

But they do buy our goods to the tune of 1.148 trillion $ in 2007. We are number three in terms of value of exports behind Germany ($1.3 trillion) and China($1.2 trillion). Suprisingly, we are ahead of Japan ($0.7 trillion). That's why protectionist arguments make no sense, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face. You ban their goods and they ban yours and everybody loses. There are plenty of economists who believe that Hawley-Smoot Tariff was an important co-contributer to the cause of the depression.

[StanIROCZ]

Free Trade of GOODS would work if the other country's citizens would buy our products. But they do not.

But they do buy our goods to the tune of 1.148 trillion $ in 2007. We are number three in terms of value of exports behind Germany ($1.3 trillion) and China($1.2 trillion). Suprisingly, we are ahead of Japan ($0.7 trillion).

I'm not challenging but more asking because I don't understand. If that is true why do we have a trade deficit and why has the dollar become so weak?

[PeteL]

Free Trade of GOODS would work if the other country's citizens would buy our products. But they do not.

But they do buy our goods to the tune of 1.148 trillion $ in 2007. We are number three in terms of value of exports behind Germany ($1.3 trillion) and China($1.2 trillion). Suprisingly, we are ahead of Japan ($0.7 trillion).

I'm not challenging but more asking because I don't understand. If that is true why do we have a trade deficit and why has the dollar become so weak?

The way to fix a trade deficit is to become more productive at making the things that you now import. Productivity is simply the value of the goods produced relative to what it cost to make them. High productivity is what makes a nation wealthy.

In the absence of trade barriers, a nation exports what it is most productive at making and it imports what it sucks at making. If you enact trade barriers. Then you will move the nation's production from what it's best at making to what it doesn't make as efficiently. Consequently the nation as a whole losses productivity and is worse off than before.

The unions and managment of the big 3 have to decide to become more productive... period. So the union has to drop the ridiculous and unproductive work rules and the managers have to stop sucking the lifeblood of the company away in the form of outrageous bonuses, perks and stock options.

A bailout will simply encourage they same unproductive behaviour that has been going on since the last bailout. Remember we have been down this road before...and now instead of just one company with it's hand out...there are three.

Why the dollar is weak, in my opinion has to do with another deficit...but I've given up hope of our government every becoming fiscally responsible.