How to go from horrible to respectable?, help a newb out Options

[atakacs]

Ok it's like this: At my last AX I was probably 6 seconds slower than the avg for my class, ESP on what was mostly a 50-60 second course. Most cars were mid to low 50s and a Z06 even ran a 49. My best was a 60. I am literally one of the slowest drivers at the event. I'm on stock tires which I know sucks, but... even when I let a buddy drive my car, he got a better time than me the 1st time ever driving it so I know it's me, not the car. I mean... there's a guy in a lightly modified CTS-V on street tires that gets better times than me!!!

I ran a few AXs last year... 3, maybe. How can I improve or practice without spending several years doing it? We get so few runs per event and then I couldn't attend the local driver's school, and I'll miss about 4 of the AX events over the summer for work as well as the EVO school. I thought about setting up some cones in a Wal-Mart parking lot after hours but I'm sure the cops would show up in no time... so I tried something different. I got a Logitech/Momo racing wheel & pedals for the PC and a few driving games/simulators like NFS and GTR2. I'm not sure how good they are at making you a better driver... unfortunately I think they made me more cautious, not more competitive.

So what do I do? I'd like to be competitive by the end of the year and recognized as the most improved this year. Do you think there's any hope?

This post has been edited by atakacs: May 11 2007, 08:21 PM

[Mojave]

Step 1: Seat time, go to every event possible, out of town events, etc
Step 2: Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts, buy it, read it, and then read it 10 more times
Step 3: Start taking solo seriously, ride with fast drivers, walk the course with fast drivers, walk the course two or three times, have fast drivers ride with you and give you feedback
Step 4: If money and time, get to an Evolution School. They aren't cheap, but worth every penny if you are serious about getting faster.
Step 5: More seat time

Edit: I now see you can't make the Evo school. Try and make it anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Mojave: May 9 2007, 05:45 AM

[KeithO]

Good advice. Also, check your local event venues for "Test and Tunes". We have a few T-n-T's per year locally. You typically get more runs than your tires can take.

Also, this place:

http://www.beaverun.com/

has a lot purpose-built autocross pad. They often have informal autocrosses where, again, you can run so many times that you run out of tires.

I don't know where you are located so I don't know if this is useful to you.

FWIW, the majority of improvement for me came from an in-class competitor riding with me and allowing me to ride with him. It was a great relationship until I beat him once. Then no more rides. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[Jeff97FST/A]

Course walks.

Like our Novice Chief says, "It's like voting, do it early and do it often".

Find an experienced member to walk with. Have them give you pointers (pardon the pun) during the walk if they're willing. You're probably late on every element. Do every thing earlier than you think you should. Do you feel yourself reacting to the cones as they appear in front of you?

[sgarnett]

Edit: I now see you can't make the Evo school. Try and make it anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you absolutely can't make the local school, drive to one you can. Stay in a hotel if you have to.

[z28jeff]

Probably the cheapest, fastest, and easiest way to figure things out is riding along with faster drivers, and have them ride along with you. I didn't do this when I started out, and it took me years to get decent. I've helped a few newcomers in the past two years, and was amazed at how much progress they made in less than a full season. Most newbies don't realize how aggressive you really need to be, and riding along with a faster/more aggressive driver shows them what a faster run should feel like.

[CrashTestDummy]

Work on the driver first, the car second! If there is a problem with your times, it is probably due to to you, not your car. Fix that first, keep your car maintained, and then start upgrading as you gain experience and can tell if a new part helps or not.

Read all you can about it. Re-read often. There is more to the sport than it looks, and it takes a while for much of it to soak in. Here is a link that has links that may help:

http://sccaforums.com/programs/autocross/a...sshandbook.aspx

Seat time is seat time. Like horsepower, you can never have enough seat time.

[CMC #37]

What these guys said! Do the driver mod...instruction as much as possible and seat time, seat time, seat time! Set goals for yourself each time you go out. Don't know what goals to set? Run it by someone who is a consistent driver. How did they get that way? Take notes or better yet keep a diary on your progress. What worked, what didn't? This goes for your mental approach as well as car set-up. Racing is a very mental game. You must come out with a winning attitude to do well. Negative thinking is poison - say what you can do, not what you can't. Have a short memory for mistakes after you have learned from them.

Most folks have the ability to drive well. A few take to it quickly. Most of us need to persevere in order to be a good driver.

[slowTA]

I've been autocrossing for 10 years and just started getting competitive last year or two. Mostly because I had to sit out half a season for one reason or another, so I just did it for fun knowing I would be able to devote more time to it eventually.

Have you spun the car or come close to it? I'm not saying this to be macho or anything, but sometimes people need it to loosen up and see just how far the car can go. The car might be a lot more capable than you think! I'm also not saying you should go and spin the car just for fun either.

Good luck and keep us up to date.

[DavidDymaxion]

In addition to what others have said:

See if you can get a better driver to codrive your car for a day. I did this with someone in our club, and they immediately jumped from lower 10% to mid-pack, and are now in the upper 1/3 of times. For me, I improved alot after the EVO school.

Playstation GT3 and GT4. The driver's tests I think are especially good, as well as the test tracks. I highly recommend a force feedback steering wheel.

You might not be as far behind as you might think. I assume you have a Camaro? A CTS-V has 100+ hp on you, IRS, and bigger wheels. I have found race tires to be good for as much as 5 seconds improvement on a 60 second course. It is probably worth giving everything a good wiggle, and make sure nothing is loose on the car, and having the alignment checked. Did you copy a proven ESP setup, or did you mod on your own? Suprisingly small changes to the car can make it difficult to drive well. I did an AX alignment (max neg camber), and then the front stuck, but the car oversteered (lots of air in the front tires fixed that, and I'm hoping my new strano bar is the right fix for it). I put on race tires, but the car would suddenly spin out without warning (I think it was topping or bottoming out) -- but some Strano koni shocks fixed that and the car is much gentler now.

Did you transition from a front wheel drive car? I was able to drive my FWD near its limits soon. It took me a while to learn "slow in and fast out" with my Camaro. It has taken many AXs to master the car, but boy is it rewarding to drive! I'm still learning.

This post has been edited by DavidDymaxion: May 10 2007, 05:52 AM

[Unbalanced Engin...]

There are three things that will make you faster.

1. Seat time

2. Seat time with someone who knows what should be happing there to help you

3. SEAT TIME.

Don't mess with the car much if at all until you have some more under your belt. I've instructed a few who have made their cars too fast too early and it took them longer to learn because they just couldn't drive the car at a limit that high.

Jason S.

[atakacs]

Guys, thanks for all the input. Some of it is really helpful.

Step 1: Seat time, go to every event possible, out of town events, etc
Step 2: Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts, buy it, read it, and then read it 10 more times
Step 3: Start taking solo seriously, ride with fast drivers, walk the course with fast drivers, walk the course two or three times, have fast drivers ride with you and give you feedback
Step 4: If money and time, get to an Evolution School. They aren't cheap, but worth every penny if you are serious about getting faster.
Step 5: More seat time

Edit: I now see you can't make the Evo school. Try and make it anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1-going, 2-got it, read it, will re-read it, 3-I do... know anyone in the OH area? 4-I'm working on getting into the EVO at BeaveRun on May 26th, 27th but 26th is full and I'm on a waiting list. 5-How can I get more seat time when there are so few runs? 4 runs *60 seconds = 4 minutes a week, assuming I go every week???

...Also, this place:

http://www.beaverun.com/

has a lot purpose-built autocross pad. They often have informal autocrosses where, again, you can run so many times that you run out of tires.

I don't know where you are located so I don't know if this is useful to you.

-Thanks for the tip. I'm going there for EVO School on 26th, 27th if I can get in. Are you going to be there?

Edit: I now see you can't make the Evo school. Try and make it anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you absolutely can't make the local school, drive to one you can. Stay in a hotel if you have to.

Thanks. See last reply.

...Have you spun the car or come close to it? ...

Yes... I spun it once last year and DNFed because I left course a few times. Not this last time, though... I didn't hit a single cone. I'm wondering if I became more (too) cautious? After every run I thought to myself, I should have pushed harder... but to my newb senses, it felt like I was always at the verge of breaking loose.

In addition to what others have said:

See if you can get a better driver to codrive your car for a day. I did this with someone in our club, and they immediately jumped from lower 10% to mid-pack, and are now in the upper 1/3 of times. For me, I improved alot after the EVO school.

Playstation GT3 and GT4. The driver's tests I think are especially good, as well as the test tracks. I highly recommend a force feedback steering wheel.

You might not be as far behind as you might think. I assume you have a Camaro? ... It is probably worth giving everything a good wiggle, and make sure nothing is loose on the car, and having the alignment checked... Did you copy a proven ESP setup, or did you mod on your own? ...
Did you transition from a front wheel drive car?

by codrive do you mean I drive, he drives my car, etc? Are they allowed to drive more than one car on race day?
I have GTR2 for the PC and a Momo/Logitech FF wheel.
I have a WS6... read sig (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Everything is tight... car is a low-mileage '02. I'm planning on getting an alignment before the next event. My mods are minor: a STB and a battery relocation.

My wife's car is a FWD but my last car was an automatic '98 Z28.

This post has been edited by atakacs: May 11 2007, 08:18 PM

[RVachon]

What they said, and if you want to practice using a sim, Playstation stuff are games, not sims. Get GTR2 or rFactor for the PC and turn off all the driving aids.

[Blainefab]

I'll repeat a few things that have been advised here, but in a different order:

Ride with a good driver. Do this soon so you start emulating good technique rather than trying to invent your own.

Look at where the good driver is looking - it won't be straight ahead or even at the next corner - it will be at the exit of the next corner or beyond - at the entry to the corner after that.

Look ahead - DNF'ing because you are lost is likely from not looking ahead. The brain needs to know where it is going in order to plot a course. Peripheral vision will take care of knowing where the car is and what direction it's pointed. I had been street driving for 30yrs before starting autox and the looking ahead thing was the most difficult part to learn, and the most rewarding to accomplish. It took a concerted, constant effort, but improved my autox, RR track, and street driving. I also made fundamental changes to my driving position and car placement as I relearned how to drive.

At an intermediate skill level, some folks can get by pretty well with memorizing the course during the walk(s), but on some courses memory won't help much compared to the visual cues from looking ahead. A lot of emphasis is put on analyzing the course during the walks, but my hunch is that a good driver can do quite well without a walk.

Seat time - gotta go to schools. Local clubs, Evolution, whatever. Lotsa seat time. Riding in the passenger seat does count as seat time. There usually is a new driver course walk led by an experienced member - ask that person who to ask for rides, they can help hook you up.

Don't do much to the car except maintenance items and making sure brakes are working properly and tire pressure is in the ballpark. Stick with street tires till you are smooth and comfortable at and beyond their limits and can recover gracefully from sliding either or both ends. R rubber too soon can stop a drivers development cold.

[KeithO]

atakacs - I won't be at BeaveRun for the Evo school. I took Phase 1 (or whatever it was called) 2003... However, I plan to start running quite a few autox events this summer in the Huntington/Charleston/Parkersburg WV area in my street WS6.

Good luck!

[DavidDymaxion]

Yes, one car in AX can have 2 drivers. Generally this means they are driving your car for all their runs that day. Some regions will let you give up one of your runs to have someone else drive, or you can have another driver during fun runs.

I obviously didn't read the fine print (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif) (the sigs don't show up in reply mode), sounds like you have a good machine. I still wouldn't assume everything on the car is fine, potholes, hitting a curb, etc., could mean something needs to be replaced already.

Regarding someone else's comments on GT3/GT4 on the Playstation: Why don't you think they are sims? The physics seems really good. My only complaint is you can ram other cars or staionary objects without damage or slowing your own car.

by codrive do you mean I drive, he drives my car, etc? Are they allowed to drive more than one car on race day?
I have GTR2 for the PC and a Momo/Logitech FF wheel.
I have a WS6... read sig (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Everything is tight... car is a low-mileage '02. I'm planning on getting an alignment before the next event. My mods are minor: a STB and a battery relocation.

My wife's car is a FWD but my last car was an automatic '98 Z28.

[Mojave]

5-How can I get more seat time when there are so few runs? 4 runs *60 seconds = 4 minutes a week, assuming I go every week???

Fun runs, practice events, double entry. Any/all of these can help get you more seat time. Some clubs, like PCA and BMW, give more than 4 runs. Run with them when possible.

[atakacs]

5-How can I get more seat time when there are so few runs? 4 runs *60 seconds = 4 minutes a week, assuming I go every week???

Fun runs, practice events, double entry. Any/all of these can help get you more seat time. Some clubs, like PCA and BMW, give more than 4 runs. Run with them when possible.

By double entry do you mean me entering as a driver twice? Can that be done? Like when a ride is shared except I share it with myself? Does anyone do that? Does anyone know if OVR allows that?

[Mojave]

5-How can I get more seat time when there are so few runs? 4 runs *60 seconds = 4 minutes a week, assuming I go every week???

Fun runs, practice events, double entry. Any/all of these can help get you more seat time. Some clubs, like PCA and BMW, give more than 4 runs. Run with them when possible.

By double entry do you mean me entering as a driver twice? Can that be done? Like when a ride is shared except I share it with myself? Does anyone do that? Does anyone know if OVR allows that?

Yes, you drive twice. I know Houston SCCA does it, and we (Texas A&M Sports Car Club) have done it on a limited basis. Talk to whoever is in charge, and see if they will let you drive again if you help setup and tear down. Many clubs will let you get away with murder if you help tear down at the end of the day. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The way it usually works is you drive once as normal in your normal class. Then, you drive again, in another heat, usually in a different class (I know Houston SCCA has DB class, which is only for double entered drivers). The second time around you aren't competing against anyone in your normal class for points, just getting a chance to get more seat time.

This post has been edited by Mojave: May 12 2007, 04:12 AM

[Joe Silva]

our local regions(kansas/salina/KC/wichita) allow you to run twice as long as you work twice. Work 1/drive 2/work 3/ drive 4......This is what i did and it seemed to help me alot, I still do it from time to time. It really allows you to get some reflection while working the second time to see some of your mistakes and think about it, plus a chance to correct them!

SEAT TIME is the best way to making you faster, i also like the advice of allowing a better driver ride with you or co-drive with you in the same heat.