I talked to my dad last night and I told him about the lifter. He wasn't sure if he wanted the car, but he was definitely interested. The plan was to get the car on the road and then go from there. If he decided to pass, I'd sell the car for a profit. So that's why I was initially going to fix the engine for as little possible.

Now that the lifter is stuck, I need to figure out what direction I'm going to go. Hence the call to my dad.

So he's really interested and sounds excited about it. He's going to call me back later today and we'll talk more and I'd like to have some numbers for him.

This car would be a weekend cruiser/once in a while HPDE car. He's a good driver, but a little timid on the track. he enjoys driving at 7/10ths, nothing more. Since this car already has all the suspension goodies already, we just need to find a good balance with power. My gut feeling is to go with LT headers, an LS6 intake manifold and a cam similar to an LS6 cam. He likes a lumpy idle, but doesn't want any drivability issues. So something slightly more aggressive to the LS6 cam will probably be perfect. Add a tune and I think he'd be just north of 380 and it'll make power to 6500.

It's already got an LS7 clutch and light weight flywheel and the transmission still shifts fine. It's also got pro 5.0 shifter that feels great.

I'm thinking about dopping the engine. It would make replacing the cam easier and then it'd allow me to add oil pan baffles to prevent starvation on the track.

I'm guessing about $2k for all of that.

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

If the lifter bore is damaged, I'd probably take it to a reputable local machine shop to see if they can hone it and/or repair it. Whether or not they can do that safely with the remainder of the rotating assembly installed I do not know. If they can't, then someone will need to disassemble the short block prior to the repair. If it's already at the machine shop it'd be easy for them to perform other cleanup tasks as well, as your funds allow. If they cannot repair the bore, then you'd at least be looking at another engine case or short block. You'd have to move your rotating assembly to the new case if it was bare. Weigh the cost of repairing vs. replacing the block.

Once the block is in order, you can re-use the current heads. The machine shop would be able to disassemble/clean/reassemble with old or new parts and also prepare the head gasket surface if desired.
Some sample numbers I threw together:

lifters 12499225 ($100,per engine)
lifter trays 12595365 (4@$6, need two per head)
head gaskets 12498544 (2@$30, per head)
head bolts 12498545 (2@$24, not re-usable; per head)
water pump gaskets 12630223 (2@$4, per head)
front cover seal 12585673 ($16,if you need to pull the front cover)
front cover gasket 12633904 ($16, if you need to pull the front cover)
crankshaft bolt 12557840 ($4, not re-usable; if you need to pull the front cover)
exhaust gasket 12617944 (2@$11, probably re-usable)

The above new is $300, plus any tax & shipping.

LS6 intake manifold: (PN 88894339, casting # 12573572) No longer sold, need to find used. Expect to pay $300-$400. You'll need to modify the ribbing on the bottom of the intake to be compatible with the LS1 coolant crossover lines, or buy the LS6 coolant crossover lines & plugs.
Cam: If new, expect to pay at least $400. I'd suggest contacting Patrick Guerra, Kip @ CamMotion, or Brian Tooley for your application
LT Headers: If new, expect to pay $300-$1200 just for the primaries, plus whatever you use to mate the primaries to your tail pipes.
Pushrods: You should budget to buy new pushrods for the different cam base circle, unless you want to trust the seller to sell you a cam which definitely works with your existing pushrods. If people won't be sustaining high RPM for a long time (like drifting), 5/16" thickness would probably get you by. In general, you want the thickest diameter, thickest sidewall which has adequate clearance in the pushrod guide. Anywhere from $100-$300 for a set.
Valvesprings: You may need to budget for these depending upon the cam spec'ed.

Going with the lower end costs, that's $1500 above, plus valve springs, the y-pipe/x-pipe/exhaust, plus the cost of repairing/replacing the block, etc. You'll save some if you're able to buy used, and you may be able to recoup some of your costs by selling the old good parts.

After that, it just depends on what else you want to inspect and your budget. Expect to pay $400-$500 for a reputable in-person tune. I don't remember if a new oil pan gasket is recommended when you drop the pan. You might want to consider a better timing chain ($150)... other misc gaskets, lots of knick knack things, only your budget is the restriction.

That's about what a guy on the New Caprice forum was quoted to do a DOD-delete kit install, for the parts alone. The labor was an extra $1300-$1400, depending on the shop he talked to. He's essentially doing what you are, pulling heads, replacing the cam, lifters, and cam-compatible valvetrain. Just a datapoint here.

Thanks Jim! Yeah that's about what I came up with. Thanks for taking the time to post that. It really helps to have it all in one place. The one thing I want to say is I can't imagine the lifter bore is damaged. The lifter still moves freely, it just mushroomed so it won't come out through the top. What do you think caused the pitting on lucky number 7?

I still feel this engine is relatively healthy and has a lot of life left in it. It'd be so easy to drop this engine off at a local engine shop with a wad of cash strapped to it and pick it up a few weeks later. But I'd rather just fix what's broke and drive it.

I have a set of .010 rod bearings if you wind up needing them (not saying you're turning the crank, but if you do....). They are sealed in the package from the trailblazer SS engine we rebuilt.

Steve Pitting is kinda normal on a bunch of these. Like the camshaft was not hardened properly. There is a GM TSB going back to 99+ and this issue. Don't forget a Oil pump and o-ring while your at it.

I see you cross-posted in LS1Tech. I've read that the pitting is usually related to the heat treatment of the metal. Here are a few links of use:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-i...-bad-build.html
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-in...deo-inside.html
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-i...one-usable.html

This might be that TSB:

http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/topic/7012...rs/#entry516835

How many miles on the current filter & oil? I would absolutely drain the oil and carefully inspect the oil for glitter or flakes. Then cut the oil filter open, and carefully remove the filter media. Inspect both the media and the remaining oil in the filter for the same. If you find any glitter or flakes, I'd find the source before re-assembly. If you don't see any, your bottom end is probably good but I've always went with a new oil pump on a rebuild.

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-par...project-c5.html

Oh wow that's interesting...

That might be a good deal. I'm going to get more information from him. Thanks did finding that.

So now I'm considering getting a new set of freshly rebuilt heads. Loyyd Elliot sells reworked heads complete ready to bolt on for $800. It would be kind of a same to bolt old heads to a new bottom end.

Are there any other heads that you guys would recommend?

With that mileage, I'd at least hone and ring it. Make sure the bottom end seals up to match the top end. But this is where project creep begins....

Jim posted a link to a rebuilt LS1 block for sale for a good price. So I may get that block and put new heads on it. Then I'd sell the block for whatever I can get for it. Possibly. Or maybe I should rebuild it and put it in my LT1 car.

What's your budget for the assembled heads? From GM, the 241, 243, 799 or 743 (5.3l head) castings seem to be the best of the lot, but they may require center bolt valve covers if you don't already have them. You might find a deal on a good set of these used castings to send to a porter which would be less expensive than using new heads. Some heads have a special notch in them that others do not have, so ensure you pay attention to that when ordering the matching gaskets.

From what I can find, the following companies are popular on LS1Tech for vendors who port stock castings. I'd recommend posting over there to discuss.
Texas Speed & Performance
Advanced Induction
Total Engine Airflow
Lloyd Elliot, although more popular in the 1st Gen LT1 community

http://youngstown.craigslist.org/pts/5707157619.html

http://siouxfalls.craigslist.org/pts/5708786799.html

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/pts/5705352104.html

http://allentown.craigslist.org/pts/5691759948.html

http://houston.craigslist.org/pts/5701198649.html

http://twinfalls.craigslist.org/pts/5693955394.html

Thanks Jim. I don't want to take a chance on another used block. The 2 guys block interests me because I'd spend nearly that much on just cam, lifters, oil pump, timing chain and front cover gaskets. But he hasn't responded yet.

I think I'm back to leaving the bottom end alone, new cam lifters and springs and put it back together. New oil pump also, but that's it. Ok oil pan baffles, but seriously, that's it!

Um hmm, that's what we all say

I've said that on every one of my projects.....every single one.

Car - noun - 1. an automobile. 2. a big hole in the garage you pour money into.

My dad just stopped by and saw the car. He couldn't believe how nice it is and definitely wants to buy it from me. So, time to order some parts!!

One thing we talked about is the long tubes. When he had them on the 97, they always leaked, rattled against the cross member and had serious ground clearance issues. He just doesn't want to deal with that again. So I'm going to do some research and figure out what cam and springs we should go with. I'm still thinking something similar to an LS6 cam, LS6 intake manifold and possibly 01-02 exhaust manifolds. I hear they flow better than the 2000 manifolds, but I'm not sure.

I'm really excited. I was a little worried what my dad was going to think. But he was more than excited. The other thing that's a must is new wheels. So I'll have to get some help on wheel choices. I think we should get 18's and possibly do a 315 square size. I'd like to get wider tires than the usual 275's since we are getting new wheels anyway. This is going to be mostly a weekend toy and occosionaly he'll do some HPDE's. I know he doesn't want to deal with track tires, so NT-05's will probably be a good tire for both street and track. I know it was great on my M3.

I think it was Texas speed who had a 212/218 cam on a 114 lobe separation that seemed like it should work well without headers. I was eyeballing that one because I really don't want to deal with headers (if I were to put a cam in the new toy...though I think I'd be better off with a Procharger). They do a .550 and a .600 lift version. I didn't want to have to keep changing valve springs every year or so, so the low lift seemed interesting to me.

Hooker is making a set of mid-length headers now that look really nice and offer huge ground clearance compared to long tubes.

They are nice, but man they are expensive. I had a hard time finding any really good results. One dude said they were good for 4 tenths down the 1/4 mile.

These are the less restrictive manifolds, not the 01-02, right?




I want to rock the stock manifolds and see what kind of results we can get. My dad wants drivability and use ability over max power. We can always add headers later if we need it.


Thanks Kevin, I'll give them a call next week. He wants zero drivability issues and something easy on springs. Sounds like they'll have a cam that'll be good for us.

LS motors, + long tubes = serious HP. DON't do a build without them.

Everyone says that, I know. But there's really not much data showing that you can't make decent numbers on stock manifolds. The LS6 did it with stock manifolds.

My dad hated those headers so indeed to try to make the manifolds work. He knows if they don't, we'll do headers in the future.

212/218 low lift

http://www.texas-speed.com/p-5002-texas-sp...k-camshaft.aspx

212/218 high lift

http://www.texas-speed.com/p-4925-texas-sp...k-camshaft.aspx

216/220 low lift

http://www.texas-speed.com/p-5004-texas-sp...k-camshaft.aspx

216/220 high lift

http://www.texas-speed.com/p-5072-texas-sp...k-camshaft.aspx


With the "no headers" requirement, I'd likely lean towards the smaller cam with the low lift package. It's available on a 114 degree lobe separation. That is likely to be a good choice for "no headers". They seem to indicate that you can buy any of these cams ground on a 114 degree lobe separation, call them and see what they say.

LS1/LS6/LS7's/shorties/midlengths/longtubes in that order should flow the best. They'll all bolt up to the heads, but from what I've read only the LS1 F-body manifolds will be compatible with the F-body engine bay and suspension without hacking. The LS6 exhaust manifolds were only available for the Corvette, and the LS7 manifolds exit in the center instead of the rear like stock. From a performance perspective I'd not bother with shorties or midlengths, though.

Whomever you contact regarding a replacement cam, inquire about valve springs and whether your current length pushrods are the correct length. They may want to know what lifter you're using also. Ideally, you would use a pushrod length checker after everything is assembled to determine a pushrod length in the preload window, and order that length instead of assuming up front.

If you stick with stock exhaust manifolds now, realize you'll need to have the car tuned once for the stock manifolds and again after adding headers. A cam designed for stock manifolds will not be optimal for headers, and vice versa. So you will be making a compromise unless you decide to swap to another cam at the same time you install the headers. Ground clearance with longtube's should be fine at stock ride height but you would need to keep an eye on it if you lower the vehicle, or if your front suspension is soft enough to allow the front to 'crash' down after going over a speed bump which would hit the collectors on a speed bump. The y-pipes for longtubes are hit'n'miss, my ARH fit really well though.

I think there is a difference between LS1 manifolds. The 98-00 and the 01-02. I'm not 100% sure though.

This car is on coil overs and it's going to sit pretty low. Not slammed, but lower than stock. I just know he doesn't want to deal with long tubes. Another thing he really wants is low end torque. I don't know if long tubes compromise low torque.

I'm going to get an LS6 intake manifold. The PO already has a larger TB, so that should be a nice compliment to the ls6 manifold. Maybe I'm wrong, but with an LS6 cam, or something comparable, the cam might be the limiting factor, but the manifolds. Now for those who put a big cam, yeah I could totally see the manifolds being a problem.

Maybe it's just hopeful thinking.

PDF parts manual shows these manifold part numbers... it's a little hard to read the part numbers when I zoom but I think this is correct. No idea on the functional differences or whether they mate to all versions of the OEM exhaust components.

exhaust manifolds
98-99 12560193, 12560194
00 12559506,12559507
01-02 12567706,12559507

I believe the aftermarket Y pipes follow the same year breakdowns. One year seems to say it fits two other years, but requires welding 98-99 might fit an 00, but you'll have to weld...or that's what I remember from memory).

Is the LS6 worth it on a more or less stock engine?

When I had a stock LS1 short block with LS1 intake, small cam and longtube headers, I gained 25-30rwhp, with it being tuned before and after. I may have printed dyno sheets in storage...not sure, that was over 10 years ago.

YES !

... And a 220R cam is COMPLETELY live-able,m even in a daily driven car

~DaVe

Just talked to Texas speed. They said to go with a 224r 112 LSA. You would be able to tell there's a cam in it, but it will be completely driveable.

Even without headers?

Yeah he said I'll just be leaving more on the table. And someday if he wants more, the headers will make a big difference. He was guessing we'd be at 350, maybe more to the ground. I guess we'll find out, huh?

Cool. I know you can run any cam without headers, but they don't always like it due to dilution of the incoming air charge (because of poor cylinder scavenging). I expected them to push you towards the 114 LSA cam without headers. Interesting.

I think you'd have to be at more then 350 RWHP. The SOM SS I had dynoed at 329 RWHP and it only had a lid and an exhaust on it. That cam has to be worth more than 21 hp. I'm curious to see what kind of results you get since I'm in the "don't want to deal with headers" crowd too. I might change my mind at some point....maybe. I just want to keep this one headache free, a car you can hop in and drive to the west coast without any issues.

why would headers cause driving/reliability issues?

Only when they leak, burn spark plug boots, or get ripped off the car on a speed bump. I had headers on one car that required me to constantly tighten the bolts. They kept backing out of the heads. Didn't matter what I did, the headers were always coming loose...then they burn a gasket and you get to swap header gaskets and put them back together. They had nice (3/8" thick) stainless steel flanges, but still didn't want to stay put. I've burned spark plug boots and picked up a miss. I've had headers on a lot of cars over the years (including a 1977 Chevy C20....lol) and they are almost always more "work" than a vehicle with stock manifolds. There's nothing wrong with running headers, I'm just getting old and cranky and I no longer like stopping in Frostburg, MD because I have a really bad miss climbing the hills in the mountains (8% grades) due to a burned plug wire. I wound up buying a wire and changing it in the parking lot of a parts store to get home. I don't have the patience for that stuff these days...not like I once did.

If you burn plug wires on an LS when the coils are right there, you did something wrong.

I began with Grotyohann longtube headers around 2000, and they eventually cracked at the collector, which prompted me to switched to ARH headers maybe around 2009? I've never burned a stock length spark plug boot using the factory coil mounting locations. I do get flat spotting on the bottom of the collectors from speed bumps if I set my front ride height too low. I've always used Stage 8 locking nuts on the exhaust flanges, never lost one during use (but lost plenty of locking clips while R&R'ing the little bastards). There aren't any hills in Floriduh, I think the steepest grade I've encountered was on I-75 on the TN/GA border, and that might only have been 4-5%? I did travel through mountains at night going between TN and the Carolina's years ago, but I don't remember what interstate that might have been or the grade.

That was kind of my thought, too. I've so far had decent luck with headers, other than the scraping the speed bump stuff. Two of our LTX cars have long tubes, and I've never put a wrench on them. The Firebird has Stainless Works swap headers, and have been fine for almost a year (that's how long we've had the engine in the car without major work, not because of header problems). Typing that, I guess I need to check bolts on my next trip to the shop.

But yeah, they are generally more work, especially if there's any work where you need to move them around, and things like starter changes, can sometimes require you to first loosen, or remove a header, which can triple the R&R time, and make work very annoying.

Does anyone know of any back-to-back comparisons of stock manifold vs. shortys vs. long tube HP output? It would be interesting to see, and not some stupid magazine 'shootout' articles where they compare those parts, but casually mention that they swapped out other parts, too, 'since they were there', so you don't know what contributed what.

Yeah he wants to avoid headers if we can for all the reasons mentioned. He wants to be able to take the car to the store or run errands and not have to worry if there's a speed bump or not.

I really can't find anyone who has cammed a car on stock manifolds. Everyone does LT's first. Everyone. Maybe because the Internet says you should? Idk.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what kind of results we get and what the curves look like. I'm going to keep an eye out for an LS6 intake manifold but I'll use the stock one if I can't find one. It's easy to change down the road.

When I bought my car it had Mac mid-lengths, Y-pipe and custom merge collector. I had installed 5.3 ported heads, Custom Cam from TEA 222/222 .581 xer on a 114+4. It made RWHP 400hp/425ftlbs. Drove like a dump truck and you didn't have to rev it to the moon. Even with mid lengths and a lowered car you have to be mind-full of speed bumps.

Man I can't wait to get back to work on this car. I'm so excited about it. Oh that reminds me, I need to get in touch with the detailer and the dent remover dude.

So I'm going to tint the windows with whatever the legal limit is. The last thing I need to start thinking about is wheels. Are those 16's worth anything? The PO has them re finished and are honestly flawless. The tires have probably 80% tread.

With my car, I'm going for the blacked out look. I know, not very original, but I like it. What wheels would you put on the car? I talked to him about the wheels briefly and he agrees we should go with 18's to fit larger brakes and that's just where everything is headed anyway. Should I stick with 275's or can I easily fit larger? I've read on here that you guys say that wider tires make a big difference, but I think I read that you don't want more than 275's for the street.

When he does a track day, he's going to drive it to and from the track. So he's probably use something like NT05's for steet and occasional track.

We'll take brakes later, but I think I just want to get some ducting to the LS1 brakes and some good Carbotech pads. We'd swap the pads out for the track. They'd be ok driving to and from the track.

My corvette had stainless works headers. They were really nice. It also took me over 2 hours to get the MSD starter in the car with the headers just hanging in place where I could install them once the starter was in. Then they had slip fit collectors and when I was pulling the transmission to sell it....I basically destroyed the y pipe trying to hammer it off the headers. I finally took a sawzall to the Y pipe and trashed it to get the transmission out. I couldn't imagine trying to change a clutch at a track event with those. Yes, I know the LSx engines shouldn't burn boots like the SBC's do. It's the rest of it that I'm trying to avoid.

As for testing:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ls1-engine-header-test/

Sadly they didn't retest with the manifolds after the cam swap here:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ls1-engine-cam-install/

Maybe it's just me, but I've never understood why people are so worried about scraping the exhaust on the ground. It doesn't take much to change your approach angle and get over whatever it is with zero issue. Worst case they scrape a bit and they will self clearance eventually. It's not like anyone here is running some absurdly low ride height.

<--- Drove a Jetta for two years that was lowered ~3 inches and the oil pan/trans was the first thing to scrape over anything. Sold it with rolled bacon fenders and no rust since it would all just get scraped off before it could form.

When we had the 396 LT1 with LT's, the 02 sensors were basically in the collectors with band clamps attaching the Y pipes that held the high flow cats. If we dragged the exhaust hard enough, it would cause the band clamps to slip, causing an exhaust leak, which stunk. The worst parts was the it would give the 02 sensors a bad reading and the car would run like crap.

I eventually got sick of it and has it welded.

But, that's the taste by dad has in his mouth about long tubes. I can't blame him. He wants it to be super reliable and very friendly on the street. So that why I'm trying to make that happen.

Me on the other hand, I'm the idiot driving around a race car with the exhaust practically dragging on the ground and a big ass smile on my face!

Got an email today. I'm really considering it. I'd have to change that huge cam for the one Texas Speed recommended, but it's cheap enough. After the cam change, I'd have about $2k into it. Then I'd sell my bottom end for whatever I can get. I think it would end up being about the same price but then I'd have a 100k bottom end instead of a 172k mile bottom end.

Thoughts?


Here are the emails:

Hey man I've got the stock bottom end out of my z06 for sale. Comes with a vengeance vindicator cam, ls7 lifters, melling high volume/high pressure oil pump. Motor has about 100k on it, cam and lifters and oil pump have about 10k. Im in sc(Anderson to be exact) and was asking 1400 obo.

Hey Steve,

The cam specs are 240/244 .605/.596 112 lsa, honestly I still got mid 20s mpg on the highway. The only oil burning issue it ever had was from a loose valve stem seal the shop left loose. Other than a valve stem issue it never really used any noticeable amount. Bottom end held high compression numbers and leak down values a cross the board. Oil pressure held pretty rock steady idling in the 50 lbs area even when hot.

The motor in its current form is a completely assembled shortblock. I took the oil pan off to use on my new motor setup but other that I sealed it up and wheeled the stand off to the side of the garage. It was pulled about a month back for two reasons really. I had a buddy who was "buying it for sure" and I believed him since he had bought my intake manifold and heads, so why not this.... well he no longer has the money and I don't want to endlessly wait so it's got to go, and the other reason is I was doing a turbo build and wanted a motor I could really beat on and make lots of power and not worry about since I'll be tuning on this one so I shoved a 5.3 iron block in the car.

The motor never did me wrong. Always a stout performer, but I dailydrove it for 2 years with absolutely zero issues. The front timing cover and all is still on the motor, lifters haven't came unmatted from the cam, heck the lifter trays are still bolted in the block.